In a link posted earlier today on another thread , I found a statement which confirms that, if you are trying to get your citizenship recognized, you can go to Italy BEFORE your citizenship is recognized (without submitting anything to the consulate) and get residency and a PdiS, which includes the right to work and lasts for the duration of the time that it takes to have you citizenship recognized.

It's in Italian, so I've translated it for everyone's convenience:

I'm an Argentinean citizen of Italian origin. I find myself already in Italy and I would like to begin the process of obtaining Italian citizenship. Can you give me some advice on how to begin?
Kind Sir, The minister of the Interior has issued a circular (23.12.2002 n. 28) for foreign citizens of Italian origin that return to Italy, with which the Minister instructs the Comuni to receive the declarations of Italian citizenship by descent, which is also the title and duration of the permesso di soggiorno. This disposition has important consequences for those that, without a permesso for reasons and duration other that tourism, have found themselves refused enrollment on the demographic records, and access to the procedure of recognition of Italian citizenship, by many Comuni. In these cases one has not been able to obtain a permesso di soggiorno for reasons of anticipated citizenship (permesso of long duration authorizing work, art. 11 dPR 394/99). So those that have not been able to obtain a permesso of another title have had to leave Italy or stay in the country on an irregular basis. The ministerial circular intends to make uniform the routines of the Comuni and level the road to the release of the permessi for reasons of anticipated citizenship. Therefore the Comuni:
1. will register the person as a resident,
2. will receive the declaration and the documents to begin the procedure of recognition of citizenship,
3. will release a statement that the procedure has begun, to be used for the release of the permesso di soggiorno (which must be requested at the Questura).
The permesso di soggiorno authorizes employment, inscription in the national health system, and is renewable as long as the procedure of recognition of citizenship is not terminated.

It's a pretty clunky translation, but I tried to keep things as literal as possible, considering the precise nature of these matters.

The circular mentioned can be found here - the full text (in Word format) can be obtained by clicking the link at the bottom of the page, with the words "Circolare 23-12-02". Frankly it doesn't seem to be saying much, except that permessi for anticipated citizenship can be given to foreigners in possession of permessi for other reasons.

Presidential decree number 394/1999 is cited in the article; the decree states that one of the reasons and durations that permessi di soggiorno may be released is "for acquisition of citizenship ... for the duration of the procedure of recognition."

I've heard passing statements for quite a while mentioning that this was possible, but never seen it laid out so cleanly before. I've seen it asserted on the message board that this was not possible, and I wanted to confirm that it is.

So you could get ALL your documents in order, as detailed on your Consulate's website, but instead of submitting to your consolate, go to Italy on a tourist visa, go to the Comune, and let them know that you are there to have your citizenship recognized. Then you'd have to get registered as a resident, get the letter from the comune saying you are in the process of having citizenship recognized, and get the permesso from the Questura with that letter. Then you'd have a permesso allowing you to work, and residency, with access to the health system, etc. etc. It sounds cumbersome, but it is possible.

Not that it's something I'm personally going to jump up to take advantage of. It seems that there could be too many issues with it; if your documents aren't all perfectly in order and the comune can't register you, you'll have to come back to the US to get everything fixed, or have someone else at home help you with it, etc. But for people who have everything in order but are waiting for an appointment with their consulate or something of that sort (I'm looking at the folks out there under the jurisdiction of San Francisco), or if the economy tanks here like it did in Argentina (not likely I know), this might end up being a viable possibility. I believe this circular was issued because a lot of Argentineans of Italian origin tried to go back to Italy after the collapse in Argentina, and it caused a lot of confusion.

I spent my afternoon checking this out, so I thought someone else might be interested to know that the possibility exists.

The first link mentions

"cittadinanza italiana per discendenza" Which unless I'm mistaken means moving to Italy and staying for several years. Now maybe it's more general and includes jure sanguinis.

If it is only discendenza then it's not a short vacation.

The big issue with this has always been are people allowed to work? Or will they just be able to stay in the country. If it's only permission to stay then it's fine for somebody looking to move for retirement.

Discendenza if I understand right is much simpler then jure sanguinis. All you need to prove is one grand parent or parent had Italian citizenship by birth. Then spend the three [two?] years living full time in Italy.

Now it makes sense that the first link mentions only discendenza. It's the sort of last ditch attempt somebody trying to get out of Argentina might be willing to try. So maybe it includes jure sanguinis also but it wasn't mentioned.

One thing I wouldn't expect having the process run in Italy to be any faster. Take a look how the issuing of passports to Italians living abroad is handled. If I was in Italy and needed a new passport it would be handled by the consulate here in Canada. I'd assume all the non-Italian paperwork would have to be sent back to the local consulate for checking etc.

"...La disposizione ministeriale intende uniformare le prassi dei Comuni e spiana la strada al rilascio dei permessi per attesa cittadinanza. Il Comune quindi: 1. iscriverà la persona come residente, 2. riceverà la dichiarazione e i documenti per iniziare la procedura di riconoscimento della cittadinanza, 3. rilascerà una attestazione dell'avvenuto inizio della procedura al fine del rilascio del permesso di soggiorno (che deve essere richiesto alla Questura). Il permesso di soggiorno autorizza al lavoro, all'assicurazione sanitaria ed è rinnovabile fino a che la procedura di riconoscimento della cittadinanza non è terminata.
..."

This means that "yes" you are authorized to work BUT you have to renew periodically this permit until your citizenship is regular.

That would be great for somebody with a job lined up. Or willing to look for one after arriving.

Nick,

In the actual Ministerial circular, the Word file, the term "jure sanguinis" is used.

Where is discendenza used to refer specifically to the two-generation three-years-residence rule?

I assumed that citizenship by "discendenza" - which I translated simply as"descent"- meant jure sanguinis. I felt the term was vague enough to encompass all types of acquisition by descent.

I suppose either of us could be right, but I still think this refers to jure sanguinis. The original Q&A does not mention specifically that it's only for people not entitled to jure sanguinis - and thinking about it, those people have a weaker claim to citizenship, so why would it apply to them and not to those who qualify for jure sanguinis?

I said originally that it allows you to work, and several of those pages do mention clearly that it does authorize work. Fiona, thanks for backing me up on that one.

If one were able to move to Italy, live there, and work, it might not matter to some people how long it would take. At worst, it would take just as long but you'd get to spend the intervening time in Italy. If you are looking to make a long term move anyway, then getting to go a year or two earlier could make a world of difference for some people. I agree that simply dropping the documents off on vacation, it might not be any better than going through the consulate.

Also Nick, why would an agency inside Italy have to go to your consulate to verify the documents if you need a new passport? Aren't all the relevant documents filed in your comune when you are recognized or update AIRE?

This has all been mentioned on here before. The unanswered question has always been, is there anyone on the board or known to anyone on the board who has done this? That question is always met with dead silence. Without any intell from a prior user , it's all conjecture. We cannot really know if it would be faster or no more lengthy than simply waiting many months for a consulate appointment. It might take much more time, or never succeed at all. Why presume to know what we cannot?

"cittadinanza italiana per discendenza"

That link mentions discndenza. If you just do a google search on "cittadinanza italiana per discendenza" you end up with various links to things like this

ACQUISTO DELLA CITTADINANZA ITALIANA PER DISCENDENZA

Scroll down.

" ACQUISTO DELLA CITTADINANZA ITALIANA PER DISCENDENZA

Il cittadino straniero del quale il padre o la madre o uno degli ascendenti in linea retta di secondo grado siano stati cittadini italiani per nascita, diviene cittadino:

* Se presta effettivo servizio militare in Italia;
* Se assume pubblico impiego alle dipendenze dello Stato italiano;
* Se al raggiungimento della maggiore età risiede legalmente da almeno due anni in Italia e dichiara di voler acquistare la cittadinanza italiana. "

Third option. Wierd things is I always thought it was three years.

The way I see it people attempting jure sanguinis don't need to go to Italy. They can fullfill all the requirements from outside the country. OTOH how can you try and get your citizenship by living in Italy if they won't let you in?

My understanding is the local consulate is your local town hall. It's the location you're registered.

"Italian citizens who need their passaport to be renewed or re-issued while away from their place of residence, can apply to the nearest Italian Consulate. It should be noted, however, that in this instance that Consulate will be only representing the Italian authority (Questura or another Italian Consulate) to which the applicant should normally have applied according to his or her permanent address. For this reason, that Consulate must request permission from said authority before re-issuing or renewing the passport. The process cannot be completed until this authorisation is received."

Passport

Sorry my answer was vague. Discendenza means Jure sanguinis, whomever could apply and get the citizenship in a consulate, can arrive in Italy and within 8 days apply for Pdi S per attesta di cittadinanza (not tourism). Long lines in the questure, have to buy a couple of things (even some comunes like Verona require 6 month prepaid Health insurance that covers pregnancy) and you have to go to the comune to present your papers, get a receipt, give it to questure for the PdiS per cittadinanza jure sanguinis, then the police goes within a month to check that you live where you say you live, and after they check it out they give you the PdiS and you have to renew it after a year or two. In the meantime you could work for anyone in Italy BUT you cannot go to work in the rest of Europe. THe comune where you are residing send your papers to the comune of birth of your ancestor for the trascrizione, it takes a bit more than a year to get completed. Sometimes they throw stones in the way, in that case you have to read the law and print it out and discuss, they do not know how to delay things when they are proven wrong. I know people that did this, and it took them two years to get the citizenship and a month to get the PdiS per attesta di cittadinanza.

Nck, itis three years in a sense. You have to be living in Italy for 2 years but you have to apply before the end of three years. Small window.

Fiona, one thing, when the police come to check on where you live after you have been to the comune, this is for residency not the PdiS although when going this route you may need to have the carriage before th horse so get residency before the PdiS. I will check into this a bit more.

QUite honestly, I was always told that you could get a PdiS for attesa but only if you had a valid NON TOURIST visa to enter the country so you would need a work, study or long stay visa first.

Fiona my understanding is "Discendenza" is a different part of the act. Jure is just the first section of the 92 citizenship law. Article 1. Citzenship by birth. The Discendenza is article 4.

Of course I can't find the law-(

Decreto Presidente

That's the presidental decree of 1994. I don't have time to read the whole thing right now.

ciao to all,
I just read the circolare ministeriale in question.
this is what I read:

E pertanto, ribadendo l'orientamento già espresso in altre occasionI, si ritiene che si debba procedere all’iscrizione nei registri anagrafici del discendenti di cittadini italiani per nascita in possesso di un valido permesso di soggiorno, indipendentemente dalla durata dello stesso e dal titolo per il quale viene concesso.

It practically says that you can start to file your request for Italian citizenship in Italy if you have already a regular permesso di soggiorno.
Does this include the tourist visa?

Ciao

Dora


Does

I believe that it is interesting to discuss the law whether this is possible or not, but I know people who were born as Italian descendants (like most of us) jure sanguinis and they got the citizenship entering as a tourist and changing later the permesso. You were born italian just you need to regularize your paperwork and you apply directly for Permesso di Soggiorno per Cittadinanza.

They post usually discouraging interpretations of the law but what prevails is the circular K.28 for these cases (I could find it if anyone is interested, this is the law which regulates those cases). Regarding Discendenza whether it means the same as Jure sanguinis I do not really know, I also know that by the law, no matter what they post they cannot make any difference whether you are 5th generation of italian or 2nd (in the matter related to your citizenship).

This is a government site, where the comunes write their questions and they get the answers:

http://www.anusca-online.com/quesiti/quesito.asp?idq=1183

This is a case where somebody appeared requesting the passport with all the papers in the hand and a tourist visa, the comune says what should we do? the person says "my grandparents were Italians" you will see that there is no mention of 3 years or anything; it is in Italian the explanation of what a comune should do when somebody appears with the vital records to prove the cittadinanza Jure sanguinis.

I know people which got the citizenship that way (entering with a PdiS of tourism and in theory before the 8th day changing it in the questura for Permesso di Soggiorno per attesta di Cittadinanza- but they did it after longer than 8 days-). Like Cristina said there is the issue of the residency, you have to reside in Italy. What people do is to go to a relative or friend's house where they need to stay put for 5 weeks (or stay near so that when police comes and leaves the paper saying that you need to appear with that paper within 24 hs.) you are able to make it.

Only use this road if your consulate is way too slow or you want to work in Italy in two months, because this road takes a year and sometimes more, it is only fast if you apply directly to the comune of your ancestor and you know somebody that knows somebody there.

Before planning on going to Italy you would need an address -which is not a hotel- where you are planning to stay, sometimes you need to pick a form in the questure, sometimes the comune has it but this form is for PdiS per attesta di cittadinanza. With this form you go to the comune where your italian residence belongs to, you go with your vital records apostilled and translated into Italian and they will approve that paper which says that your citizenship is in process because your documents were fine (not every comune does this, many claim not to know the law but once you print it from a public library they accept it). Once they sign that that you are in the process of your "jure sanguinis", you have to buy some francobollos, the codice fiscale, take pictures, and you go to the police and request the PdiS per attesta di cittadinanza, so before granting it they need to check that you are really residing in Italy (even though you DID enter as a tourist). So, within 30 days they will appear to check that you live there and they will give you a permesso di soggiorno per attesta di cittadinanza which you have to renew periodically and allows you to work. This is the ideal case, complications come because you for sure will cross the 8 days (but it is not important since you were born italian and you are there to inform it), the comunes also always pretend that this is not possible, so change the employee, print the law or find a lawyer (usually not needed). Once they are faced with the law they will accept your request of citizenship. Once they did this, and once they get the OK from the police that yes, you live where you say you live, then when they have time they will contact a consulate of the country of birth of you and your ascendants to see if anyone lost the right for citizenship, this takes long. Once they receive the fax with the OK from the consulate, they send all the file to the comune where your ancestor was born for the transcription of all the vital records in the line until you and your descendants. Once this is done, they issue your atto di nascita and you are done, ready to apply for your italian passport.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Fiona,

The difference between Jure Sanguinis and the other method is written into the law. With Jure Sangunis you aren't really going back further then one generation. All that matters is at least one parent had Italian nationality at your birth. [Assuming birth after 1947]. Now if that parent hadn't had thier nationality registered then you have to prove thier nationality by going back one generation. That keeps going back until you either have a break in the chain or you hit somebody that had thier Italian citizenship registered. In reality you received your citizenship at birth. From your parent. Anything before that doesn't matter unless you need to prove your parent's nationality. Your grandparent's paperwork proves your parent was Italian at birth. But you aren't going back past your parents. Your citizenship comes from the parent.

OTOH the other process might be better called naturalizion. The people involved don't have valid claim to Italian citizenship. But by residing in Italy they can receive it. They weren't Italian at birth.

Nick: Great interpretation.


I found the procedure posted by a comune:
Link PdiS Cittadinanza

It is few months old and in a Comune’s web page.

They refer there to the law which regulates this cases:
Circ. del Ministero dell’interno n. K.28.1 dell’8 aprile 1991 "Riconoscimento del possesso dello status civitatis italiano ai cittadini stranieri di ceppo italiano": Link K.28

Good Morning...sorry I haven't been paying as much attention to everyone's concerned to this regard. I came across this same issue a while back...maybe this could help someone...I will try to pass on a translation of Circulare 28...it was translated by a friend...

I finally took a good look at the Circolare 28. It is not really aimed at you - yet. With this letter, the Ministry of Interiors recommends to all Cities and Towns to "iscrivere nell'anagrafe" (REGISTER AS PEOPLE LIVING THERE) foreign citizens who descend from Italian Citizens 'by birth' and had a "valido permesso di soggiorno" (VALID PERMIT TO STAY), which is a "condizione indispensabile per avviare in Italia la procedura per il riconoscimento della cittadinanza 'jure sanguinis'" (INDISPENSABLE CONDITION TO START THE PROCESS OF ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF CITIZENSHIP 'JURE SANGUINIS' IN ITALY). Also, the letter states that the descendants of Italian citizens who hold a valid permit to stay must be registered without consideration of the period they have been living there, and without consideration of the reason why they hold said permit.

All this means that, to start the process in Italy, you must have a valid "permesso di soggiorno" and live there.

Regarding the other message you sent me, I found the phone numbers and address of the Comune di ------- on the Internet; if you want I could call them and ask about the procedures and the timing. But the circolare is pretty clear to me: you should obtain a 'permesso di soggiorno' and live there, before you can apply.

Hope this is relavant...Circulare 28 can be viewed...

I found a copy of Circular n.28/2002 at http://www.anusca.it/Flash/Circolare_28.htm.

Scotto

scotto,

It does say that you have to have a valid permesso di soggiorno to be registered as a resident. However, I think your friend is still interpreting this too strictly. Is this person Italian, or a foreigner who speaks Italian? I'd like to see what a native Italian speaker who grew up in Italy thinks of this, since there seems to be some contention among us English-speakers with regards to the scope of it, and I wonder if that doesn't stem from the language barrier. I'd be grateful if a speaker who's a regular on this board could comment.

It says specifically that they have to enroll you in the anagrafe REGARDLESS of the type of permesso that you have. It's very clear that ANY type of permesso is enough. So, it seems to me that you could go to Italy, get the permesso for tourism (as is legally required for stays of more than eight days), and then proceed with the recognition of citizenship.

Scotto, you say yourself (or your friend does) that the comuni must register them "without consideration of the period they have been living there, and without consideration of the reason why they hold said permit."

Where does it say you must be living there in the circular? Yes, you must have A permesso di soggiorno. But the object of this circular seems to be to dispel the notion that you must already have a long-term permesso in order to be registered as a resident. I'm confident that you could enter the country on a tourist visa, get a legitimate Tourist permesso, rent a house or apartment, and ask to be registered as a resident. I can't (personally) see any other reading of this circular and the laws cited in it (all of which I've reviewed in the original Italian).

The key would be that you would have to get a tourist permesso legally within the first eight days - you couldn't ignore that requirement as so many people do. Not that someone who goes over with the aim of having his or her citizenship recognized would be likely to ignore that requirement. With that, you could set up a household, and start the process.

As I said, this is not really aimed at people who are dropping by for two weeks in the summer and want to get the ball rolling on citizenship. It's for people who want to live there anyway. But then, unless you want to live there, why would there be such urgency to get citizenship? If you simply want to have the eventual right to live there, well, you could wait and have it done through your consulate.

So, yes, it may not apply to someone who is just on holiday and wants to get citizenship. But if you're planning to move there, I think it's a valid way to get there more quickly, and not have to wait for your consulate to stop dragging its feet.

Hello Michael...yes, I understand your concern. I have had the misfortune of dealing with the SF Consulate and a victim of the situation there...I am not blaming anyone for the shortcomings, and if you have followed any of my posts e were all involved with appointments cancel, ignored or somehow let down on our expectations that were represented by the consulate...be that as it may, other options were explored....

Interpretations of Circulare 28 were made by a consulate translator. Without her help, (of which i am deeply indebted to) has translated it and interpretted it for me from the prospective of the consulate and with her 20 years of experience, I never questioned it. Her interpretation of MY situation was that, as translated from the Circular, it would apply to me or ANYONE in my situation. My circumstances, by the way, is very common of thos applying for "Jure Sanguiness"

I am a bit confused regarding your question...the DIRECTIVE to all Comunes is stated that they MUST accept any applications for jure sanguiness, provided you are living in Italia under any circumstance as long as you have registered with the comune....and follow the guidelines of legality

In Europe I understand that once residency has been established then ll EEU countries MUST address the citizenship question within 6 months...it is part of the agreements made among themselves, but not inclusive of Non-European countries...at least that is the premise that i understand it to be...

so, if you are on holiday and decide to stay and wish to be recognized, I don't see any diff in whether you call yourself a tourist or if you wish to stay....the fact remains that you are there...coninuously, while you are awaiting the process to be addressed, you have this right? Is this not your perrogative, ...I think, and it is my interpretation that if I wish to stay and am allowed to legally, then the directive to the comunes isjust that, a directive of how to treat anyone who wishes to exercise their right to declare "jure sanguinis"...

so, I too would like to hear other thoughtsand opinions...if I am wrong, I would like to be corrected....

hope all are well....
scotto

Scotto everything is right except for one thing, you do not need to stay in Italy, after a month of applying for the PdiS per Cittadinanza Jure sanguinis, and once the police verifies that you live where you say you live (better if in the house of friends or relatives) and once you have the PdiS per attesta di cittadinanza (and not as a turist anymore) then you are free to go. You could call the comune, or your relatives will let you know once you receive any sort of correspondence. About the 6 months living in an Europa country you are right, the Difensore Civico will make sure that they reply you, after the 6 months have passed, this is a consulate procedure and you are fine, but on the other hand if you are in Italy it depends on several factors, like, most likely you will not be residing in the comune of your ancestor, so you have to wait until the comune where you reside contacts the proper consulates to see that nobody in your family tree lost the cittadinanza, once they get the faxes from the consulates (takes long), when they want to they will send the documents to the comune where your ancestor was born for the "trascrizione", 2 months after this the procedure will be finished, good thing is that you could work in Italy in the mean time, but you do not need to remain in Italy.

Hi Fiona...yeah, you are probably right. The strict interpretation may have derived from the fact that I would need to have my jurisdiction validated... consulate officials have very little tolerance for "grey areas" when it comes to the jurisdiction question. If one can convince a comune in Italy that they actually live there, well I think that it may be considered a bit bigger exxageration than just a little fib. If the PdiS allows me to come and go, that's great. I have heard though that each Comune would deal with the PdiS differently and as long as one gets along with their respective Comune...I guess I would have to say I agree with you. I was also told by a friend in Italy that they had to meet with the mayor of the comune, and well, convincing them that "to live" in Italy means just that...All my life I have gotten caught when I try something "grey" hahahaha. In my case, since I have recently acquired legal residency in the UK (permanent settlement visa)I will be applying to the Londra consulate. So, now that I am a member of the EEU, I would be under their jurisdiction....thanks gain

Hope everyone is well...
s

I posted a reply with a real case of a person who told me how she went through the citizenship process while staying in Italy here
http://expattalk.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2620055123/m/200...840022753#8840022753

I suggest we continue in that thread, since that thread was pointing towards this one, so we keep it all at one place.

Anybody know of a circumstance where they submitted everything to their consulate, the consulate accepted the application...and went to Italy and got a PdiS in attesa di cittadinanza while their comune processed the docs?

That was me, took awhile('bout 6mos)and a couple + trips to the questura, but you can.<