Via my website, I keep getting hopeful messages from people who would like advice about pursuing their dream of moving to Italy. I'm finding it hard to answer these because I myself am about to set up a second household in the US, in order to take a job with Sun Microsystems.

After 17 years, I am being forced out of Italy by the fact that I aspire to a challenging and rewarding career.

I've tried to have that here. In some ways I've been incredibly lucky (and have followed up luck with very hard work). But the job situation for a foreign woman in high-tech has never been good here, and, like so many things in Italy, shows no hope of improvement. I just can't sacrifice any more for the "privilege" of living in Italy.

For most of you reading this, the joys of living here will be enough (that's why you're here, after all), and I sincerely wish you luck and hope it works out for you. For me, in the end, la dolce vita is not enough.

I'll be back for frequent visits, especially because my husband, being one of the privileged people to have a rewarding and stable job - he's a university professor - has no intention of moving with me. But I'll be living in two households, and the more exciting parts of my life will be everywhere but Italy.

Right now I am in a turmoil of grief and anger. Why can't this !@$##@ country, which has so much going for it, get its act together sufficiently for a talented person to have a job worthy of her skills and experience? I leave that for others to ponder.

Really sorry to see you go, Deirdre! Congrats on the new job, though - it sounds amazing.

I suspect that we'll be following you out of Italy too in a few years. Meanwhile, we all just have to find a way to endure until then (and, hopefully, I'll find a way to have this baby without being sliced open too!)

Deirdrè,

I can perfectly understand your anger and frustration, as a day doesn’t go by that I don’t ask myself how come Italy is not really one of the richest countries in the world. Forget the rhetoric, fifth economic power in the world – you just have to look at the hospitals, schools, lack of investment in young people, etc. and you can see that in many ways Italy is a third world country dressed in Gucci loafers.

I think that your message is invaluable to people thinking of moving to Italy. I’ve been telling my clients for years that a delicious bowl of pasta is not enough when you want to build a career, have money in your pocket, etc. The reality is that Italy is a very challenging place to carve out a serious career and to make it economically due to the outrageous cost of living and taxes. In order to be able to buy a house here and live decently, I had to move 70% of my business out of Italy. Italy does not promote entrepreneurial energy and thought processes. Many years a very good friend of mine pointed out something very astute when she said that no foreigner every left Italy rich. In the twenty years that I have been here all of my foreign friends left because they couldn’t make it economically or couldn’t find satisfying work. For this reason, I’ve always said that self-employment in Italy is the way to go, if you are willing to put in 200% more energy and time than you would have to in any other developed country. If one really wants to live in Italy this is what you have to do in my opinion.

Every time I come back to Italy from being abroad I see more and more how stuck Italy really is. Before anyone jumps on me and says that this is negative, try visiting Spain, Bahrain and Ireland where I have been recently and tell me if young people and women in these countries are not cooking with gas! I know several young, bright, and dynamic young Italians who had to move to Spain to realize their dreams while the same old mildew-covered politicians continue to run Italy.

I think that you’re decision is extremely wise and many foreigners wait too long to make this decision in Italy. Good luck with all your future projects!!

Damien, why do you stay in Italy?

I don't know Damien's reasons for staying; I have stayed as long as I have primarily for my family.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill 2:
Damien, why do you stay in Italy?

This is a good question.

Deirdré, I am very sorry. I'd always want the best for whoever comes to Italy, for work, love, or love of the Country and its inhabitants. Sometimes, for many and different reasons, this is sadly impossible.
All the best for your future in the US.

Chia

Bill, I stay in Italy because it is my base from which to travel for my work. I'm not here all year round. I also have clients/work here that I don't want to let go of for now. In addition to this, my life in Italy is fine because I have stimulating work, a beautiful home, and enough money. My observations were with regards to what I see and in order to help people to balance expectations with reality regarding Italy. Given my personal circumstances, my life when I'm in Italy is fine.

I think possibly Italy can be seen as two parallel universes living side by side. On the one hand is an exceptional quality of life--provided you have the money to enjoy it! That's the other hand: anyone coming here with a view to making a handsome living will be in for a nasty shock.

You don't even have to be rich, but the days of Italy the el cheapo are clearly gone (and as one who went through that phase, yes it was nice--Florence had about 10 stoplights and not many more cars--but had some serious drawbacks, like it took 6-12 months and a few million lire to get a phone installed, and that was downtown Florence!).

Young people especially have a hard time: Damien has a point when he laments the lack of investment in younger generations. The education system isn't addressing real venues like technology and trades as non-university solutions to the job market. They have a pitiful business school offering, and that's exclusive to those with already superior English language skills (and where are average kids expected to pick those up?).

I'm very sorry to hear someone as talented as Deidré has thrown in the sponge, but I can appreciate her position.

However, I can't wait to get back to Italy this spring! It isn't just the yummy bowl of pasta, Damien, it's the appreciation and zest for life Italians give to a breathtakingly beautiful country. I could go on about the merits, but I think they've been covered in that thread "what I like most about Italy". Have a read, Damien...

quote:

Originally posted by Damien:
Given my personal circumstances, my life when I'm in Italy is fine.

Sounds good. Just curious.

Filomena, please don’t think I have a problem with Italians because that is not the case. The point I am making is another one. Even the appreciation and zest for life that you mention is being eroded due to the fact that life is becoming harder for Italians on a daily basis. Only the other day, I overheard an elderly couple in the supermarket saying to each other that that week they could afford some meat! This is shocking! And especially in a country which claims to be the fifth economic power in the world. Due to the fact that I work in a lot of Italian companies when I’m in Italy, I really have to say that the happy-go-lucky Italians I met twenty years ago are ever fewer. Speaking of which, a manager (so you can imagine how it is for lower-level people) that I know has had to take an evening job as a waiter to pay for his children’s braces. These types of situations are becoming more and more common and can hardly be described as La Dolce Vita. Some of the people that I love the most are Italian and it pains me to see them losing their hope and trust in life and the future.

I have to agree with Damien and there has been a lot of publicity already about the malaise of Italians. I work with a lot of people that should be making a better living, in my opinion. They are an important part of the workforce as they are around 25-45 years old they should be looking to move up and drive the company forward but they aren't. They are happy just to have work and get by.
A friend of mine who is a mechanic on the floor (which is good job in most countries) has a second job because he wants to move out of his parent's house unlike most males around 30 years old. In the US he wouldn't need a second job to afford an apartment for himself. It's draining and he hasn't been hanging out much with friends since he did this so it affects "La Dolce Vita". I also like to use my trainer at the gym as an example as he works in a butcher shop in the as his second job. Always reminds me a little of Rocky I.

I have been close to giving up on Italy many times. Every time I've able to brush it off until things got a little better. Still I don't get the satisfaction at work that I did in the US. Occasionally it's there but I wish it was better AND I would like to see things improve for my Italian friends too. The people I work with are in big Italian company and they should not be "just getting by."

Jeffo
my new website...Jeff in Italy

I must say, for my partner who is native Italian, and has pretty much lived in Italy all his life, is feeling so depressed about the prospects of his academic careers. On the contrary, my American friends have gone straight from Ph.D. to assistant professors here in the States! Although the job I found in Italy pays far above the average, my future Italian salary would be a joke for the average American law student graduate. My main motivator for returning to Italy: I love the lifestyle and my son (who is 1/2 Italian) will never learn Italian and become culturally involved if we don't move back. But I think everyone in this string has very valid comments to make, I think what is important in making the decision to move to Italy is defining your PERSONAL goals and doing a cost/benefit analysis. I should also add, I am so excited about my job and the people I am working with- I think this is hard to find anywhere (plus, in the U.S. I would be working 60 hours min./week, and here I will still be able to have a life!).

quote:

Originally posted by Damien:
Filomena, please don’t think I have a problem with Italians because that is not the case. The point I am making is another one. Even the appreciation and zest for life that you mention is being eroded due to the fact that life is becoming harder for Italians on a daily basis. Only the other day, I overheard an elderly couple in the supermarket saying to each other that that week they could afford some meat! This is shocking! And especially in a country which claims to be the fifth economic power in the world. Due to the fact that I work in a lot of Italian companies when I’m in Italy, I really have to say that the happy-go-lucky Italians I met twenty years ago are ever fewer. Speaking of which, a manager (so you can imagine how it is for lower-level people) that I know has had to take an evening job as a waiter to pay for his children’s braces. These types of situations are becoming more and more common and can hardly be described as La Dolce Vita. Some of the people that I love the most are Italian and it pains me to see them losing their hope and trust in life and the future.

Some of what described here can be applied to some other western countries as well, and it's not me I'm saying this. Suffice to surf the net without preconceptions.
I'm not saying we don't live in difficult times in Italy, we do.
But I also say (and I'm as positive as a postulate about this)Italians love complaining. More than their fellow other Europeans (and extra- Europeans )
Anyway, none is claiming nothing about industrialization. It's only statistics.
Those statistics are bad lately, but they're not terrible either.
Suffice to daily read the Economic pages of Il Corriere.
Personal experience (even multiplied for 100, or 1000, and this applies both to managers and students, or professionals or...whatever)is not reality as a whole. It just can give a trend. But a trend is given also to many other factors. Suffice to be humble enough not to stick (only) to Beppe Grillo, and open an economical newspaper sometimes.
I think, for how this thread is going to evolve (Deirdré posts excluded, I would never dare to judge or give opinions on her own personal sadness and malaise now or later),it's better to put things into perspective with another POW.
Someone said it well, it's not a problem of technology or progress. It's a problem of bad organization. The way is long, I know this.
Annyway... the image of a mountain of waste is more strucking (and easy to crticize)than, say, a cracking "bank", or a "Société" loosing zillions in a day due to fraudolent behavior...chi vuol intendere intenda.

Chia

p.s. I'm a happy go Italian.

quote:

fifth economic power in the world

Does anyone know if this still applies to Italy? Some how I just can't believe it does...

quote:

Originally posted by Delina:

quote:

fifth economic power in the world

Does anyone know if this still applies to Italy? Some how I just can't believe it does...

Just statistics.
According to some standards it does, according to some others it's 7th.
Just statistics...easy to be denied or boasted.
Things to be reasoning about are others.
Chia

My husband refuses to move back because shady practices (blatant nepotism, people taking advantage of others left and right, etc) and no job prospects. We live in the US, where things are far from perfect, but here he makes 90K while in his late-twenties.

Contrast this to Italy, where most of his friends are still struggling to find jobs - and most are still living at home. His best friend, Luca, and la sua fidanzata, who we are very close to, have made themselves a pledge. If Luca cannot find a way to be self-employed by the end of 2008, they are going to move to another country (probably the US or Canada). They want to start a life together, get married, have careers and children, but it has been impossible for them in Italy.

I think that I more than most want to be positive about Italy. I want to start a family, raise my children to love their cultures, but I just cannot be optimistic about Italy right now. I really try hard but when I see friends and family struggling, giving up hope themselves, it is hard for me to keep it.

I wish Italy change - it has so much unused potential. I have to laugh or I'd cry seeing that so many of the wrong things are taken advantage of, while the potential is never given that same treatment. Change is long overdue.

Chia of Bologna, I agree with you that other countries also have their problems. I was not trying to say that life in other countries is perfect and in Italy it’s not. However, there are tragic situations in Italy that I have not seen in other European countries such as people with project contracts, but who act and work like employees with none of the benefits. You just have to watch a show like Ballarò – Rai Tre to see young people who cannot buy a house and/or have children because they are in this situation. In the European countries that I know well, the government would not allow this outrageous form of exploitation to happen.

quote:

Originally posted by Damien:
However, there are tragic situations in Italy that I have not seen in other European countries such as people with project contracts, but who act and work like employees with none of the benefits.

Were I invoked?

quote:

Originally posted by Damien:
Only the other day, I overheard an elderly couple in the supermarket saying to each other that that week they could afford some meat! This is shocking! And especially in a country which claims to be the fifth economic power in the world.

Don't think the same isn't true here in the US. I think a lot of elderly on fixed incomes can't afford meat. Isn't the US one of the richest (hard to believe with the dollar these days) countries in the world?

Deirdre - I'm so sorry to hear you are leaving Italy. You are the only one on expats who we had the pleasure of meeting. I guess I now can say things worked out for the best. I got mad/sad when things didn't work out for us on a couple of occasions when looking for a job in Italy. But I have finally realized we will not be moving to Italy until Erick retires in about 10 years. Now we just have to hope the dollar will rise in due time. We have a really good life here but I long for Italy every day. My day I know will come.
I wish you and your family all the best. It must have been a very hard decision. It will all work out...good luck!

patg - you're right! These things should not happen also in America considering the three trillion spent on a useless war!

Deirdre, well congratulations for the big job offer, now don't take it. That is unless you really don't care about the life you have with your husband. As far as I can see from your blog and other things you've done well in Italy, maybe didn't have the big job or recognition of your abilities, but you have accomplised many things. Don't minimize them. Why trade your good life for living alone most of the time in the US working 60 hours a week for a company that will just lay you off should they decide they dont' need you anymore and probably destroy your marriage in the process. Sure you can go back and forth but how often and for how long.

But of course if you don't care about the marriage and want to live alone, you will probably have plenty of friends, then go for it.

jhelm - I think that's pretty harsh.

So you think Deirdre needs to give up her career dreams "for a man"? She's already done 20 years here - maybe she's done enough sacrificing for her family and wants to pursue her own thing for a while. Maybe her husband will be able to find a great job in the states - afterall the academic job market is pretty international. Or maybe they'll be a happy long distance couple - I've known several.

It's not fair to tell her that she has to put and shut up over the Italian job market after the amount of time she's already put into this country. I admire her courage and wish her the best.

Go Deirdre!