quote:

...let's not paint each police officer in Italy to be an agent of hate!
Anyway, Italy needs more out of the closet gay people, otherwise how will people ever understand how surrounded the really are! The bigots are getting what they want if gay people hide or stay out/get out of Italy, power in numbers, I say.

Indeed. The Venetian police were VERY sympathetic to what happened at Campo S. Marherita so my hat's off to them and they hauled their vagrant rear ends off to jail too.

As far as the "power in numbers" line?

Agreed. I just don't know if I'm willing to lose my life over it. I'm no spring chicken any longer!

Of course you are protected against pick pocketing etc., but not against Homophobia if that was the reason of the attack. This is a very important issue and this is why is has been introduced and is implemented in countries that really care about its citizens. I'm sorry, but I don't see that type of caring in Italy for gay people.

Damien?

I don't know how much you know about the States but I live in Massachusetts. On Cape Cod (a penninsula jutting out from our coastline) is a town called Provincetown at the very tip of that land mass.

Last summer I was beaten as stated in my previous and left for dead.

In my considered opinion (and experience) simply because hate crime laws are "on the books" does not mean they're carried out when a gay bashing is as obvious as the nose on any cop's face.

I had to fight (still am fighting) to bring the perpetrators to justice and the only success I've had is that the Attorney General's office in this Commonwealth has paid all medical bills (hugely expensive) related to the hate crime that the Provincetown Police Dept. refuses still to clasify as such.

Curiously the acting chief of police has resigned over my attack since he refused to classify what happened to me as a hate crime since I responded when called a "fag" with an equally unsavory epithet.

Perhaps - who knows - there's a lesson in this:

Be it Italy or the U.S. I'd best keep my mouth shut. Che ne pensi?

However - it's not really my style to take unwarranted abuse from any source.

I deleted your multiple posts and your apology for making them in order to clean up thread.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Gil,

Of course, if the police don't want to do anything, laws don't mean anything. I just think it's a lot easier to live in a country that is welcoming of gays.

quote:

I just think it's a lot easier to live in a country that is welcoming of gays.

Is there an entire country welcoming of gays? Holland perhaps?

I dare say Holland comes as close as any.

The Dutch seem to be an evolutionary rung up the social ladder.

Pity I don't love Holland as I do Italy!

Sorry to hear what happened to you in Cape Cod. Though I am not gay, I had my share of aggressive discrimination. I spent few years of my teenage life in a very small town where the majority of people hate outsiders, and are very belligerent and ignorant. The bully in school was feared by everyone and he harrassed all. I knew how self defense since an early age so I could keep him at bay. He knew that if he tried to mess with me it will bring his destruction. I didn't trust the school officials because they won't do anything to protect my interest.

The point is, when you are the minority and there is a significant chance of running into ignorant, stupid and mean bullies who want to become aggressive toward you, the best way is to be ready to fight.

I practice a fighting sport competitively and know that when the time comes to face people with whom I can't reason, I will be able to handle them. The unfortunate thing in life is that you can't rely on the authority to take care of you, often you have to do it yourself.

Others may disagree with me, but when it comes down to reality, it's always better when you can handle the situation. May I suggest taking up judo or sanshou or another effective martial art.

quote:

the best way is to be ready to fight

Spain is a good alternative if you want good weather, great food & wine, and, most importantly, a forward-thinking government.

quote:

Originally posted by jenna:

quote:

the best way is to be ready to fight

This is what I wrote:

"The point is, when you are the minority and there is a significant chance of running into ignorant, stupid and mean bullies who want to become aggressive toward you, the best way is to be ready to fight."

When someone is determined to hurt you, as in the original poster's case, since you can't change the other person's mind, it's always better to put up a good fight. I and people I know have been in enough conflicts to know that when you show you are ready to resist their aggression, half of the battle is already won. Even if the other side wins, it will be such a costly battle they will remember.

While most people are reasonable. The problem is that there are thugs whom you cannot reason with and they only respect force. I am a big advocate of diplomatic approach, but I am realistic too to know you need different approach for different people.

quote:

Originally posted by jenna:

quote:

I just think it's a lot easier to live in a country that is welcoming of gays.

Is there an entire country welcoming of gays? Holland perhaps?

Unfortunately you hear more and more stories recently about gay people being beaten up in Amsterdam.

Take a look at this article http://www.thestar.com/article/459861

Hi everyone! This is my first post on this website, and what an exciting topic!

I am a gay male 28 yrs old from New York. Living in Italy for a while now and have an Italian boyfriend.

I first came to Italy on vacation and was scandalized. I went to this bar in Rome called the Hanger and they have a dark room where anything goes. I had never been to anything like this before in the states. After trying this new experience, I was then followed out of the bar by a very attractive Italian. We then went to a beautiful historic alley and "got to know each other" better.

A hundred fantasies of Italian men later, I decided to return to Italy, this time for a 3 month vacation. So back in Rome, I got into the social scene and the guys I met were so friendly and invited me to countless dinner parties. I easily made friends...but was again scandalized! Every italian gay guy I know has been to a bathhouse at least once. Most go regularly.

In Rome there may be the pope but there's also a "do what you want" mentality. The straight people don't know about it, but the gay scene is crazy. When I went to the beach the first thing I noticed was all the nudity. Then I remember thinking, why are all those guys wandering around in the dunes? So I went back there and couldn't believe my eyes. It was a "free for all" and then you go back to lying naked on your towel and soaking up the sun.

Italy is basically like the United States 30 years ago...before the closed down the bathhouses. They gay guys are really friendly but are focused on random sex too much. My boyfriend was married for many years so he has an appreciation for an exclusive relationship.

Being gay in italy is definately not about coming out of the closet, as most gay men don't tell their parents. A lot of Italians don't know what homosexuality is. My boyfriend's mom who doesn't speak Italian because she only speaks dialect, and can't read or write, I can guarantee you she doesn't know what being gay means. I can't imagine what she would say if her son came out to her. She wouldn't understand at all. So basically he will stay in the closet his whole life.

Another cultural difference is that a lot of Italian men live at home with their parents until they are 30. So they can't be open about being gay and they can't bring guys back to the house to hook up. So it makes sense why they have so many bathhouses all over the place.

As far as the attitude towards gays in italy, I wouldn't say it's that bad. There is so little visibility of gays on tv, or in public that they don't really have any negative stereotypes at all. The other thing is that men can be much more affectionate in public and it's normal. Guys kiss each other on the cheeks all the time. Whereas in the United States, straight men are so afraid of being thought of as gay that they act macho around each other.

The downside of course is that if you are an open couple and want to be holding hands in public then people might look at you funny. Instead of holding hands I put my arm around his shoulder, which is totally acceptable. So yeah, other then that and the obvious political downsides, being gay in Italy is an interesting experience to say the least!

Oh, and Barnaba, so sorry to hear about you getting treated badly, you really touched my heart.

Well, I think it's a much more universal Italian conception of sex. We "puritan" anglos put to much emphasis on fedelity (or at least that's what I'm told. I've lived in Milano, Bologna, Spoleto and now Naples and the mentality is not very different. Men cheat. Like American men cheat. They are just more open about it.
I'm also a New Yorker and trust me, there is some naughty stuff going on. You ever been to the slide, or the cock in the east village. The rambles in central park....or just about any public toilet. My God, the Big Cup was a get your goodies in 2 minutes coffeeshop that was tastefully covered up it's promiscuity with rice crispy treats.
Some stuff, different way of handling it. Men who are faithful are faithful, men who cheat cheat. There are tons of gay men in look for more than just sex, there are tons of gay men who are permanately bent over.

Haha, I like your comment about the Big Cup. I did hear about different places you mentioned in NYC, but never went. I agree with you about american's putting "more emphasis on fedelity" part.

I was surprised about Italy is that every club or bar has a dark room. Also, it is normal to spend sunday in the sauna.

I'm now living in Milan and having a hard time finding bars where people go to meet each other and talk. In Rome at least there were lots of places to go and meet new people without being naked or with only a towel on. Any suggestions?

In NYC there were hundreds of bars to go to. On 8th ave alone there are like 10 bars. Having a hard time getting used to the scene here in Milano. Rome was better for socializing whereas it seems Milano is better for cruising bars. But I'm really not into that stuff right now. I want to meet and talk to people in a regular bar.

Milan is fine for socializing as well. My favorite place is L'Elefant near Porta Venezia...on sunday it's full of the queers. But I've haven't lived in Milan for almost 5 years now...oh yea, on Sunday's there's also a GREAT gay happy hour run by arcigay at villa delle rose with a drag show every week and one of the best spreads I've ever seen (the buffet...not the tranny's legs).
Sure, lots of Italian gay men go to the sauna. But the whole idea of sex parties don't exist.NY was FULL of them....by the hundreds every night (and no...I never went...I'm a wholesome dairy queen kinda guy as well).
BTW...really depends on who you talk to about the openness of being gay. My ex of three years came from a tiny town in Sardegna and I used to spend Christmas and Easter with his family who loved me.

Thanks for your advice, I will definately check out those places. I'll let you know how they are.

As far as parties go in milan, there's a bar a couple blocks from my apartment. Right near the stazione centrale. On the top floor there's a "check your clothes at the door" party. So yeah, guess things have changed since you lived here.

Like I said, I'm looking to meet people to chat since I have a boyfriend. But if someone is looking to have fun, there are places to go in Milan for sure.

That's cool that your ex was out to his family in Sardegna. It totally does depend on the person. But I feel like in the United States everyone "comes out of the closet" it's like a rite of passage in the gay world. Instead in Italy, it's more of a private thing and there's no emphasis on coming out.

How do you like Napoli? Do you go to those parties that you get sent a text message invite? I miss Naples! I used to go there so often. They guys are so nice there and very outgoing and talkative. I like the Napolitan accent. Anyway, if I go there sometime it would be cool to meet up.

Ragazzi, let's keep this thread on topic.

I'm confused, isn't this topic, "Being gay in Italy"....that's what we're talking about, being gay in italy.

Ok, I just read the posts from the beginning, and understand what you meant by getting off topic... This thread started with being gay in "rural italy" and gay rights. However, my posts discussed "being gay in italy", so I definately wasn't off topic. Anyway....back on topic of rural italy and gay rights....

Unfortunately I don't think there is much of a gay scene in rural italy. So you probably wont meet other gays. But in terms of straight people I don't think they would have any problems with a gay couple in their town.

Like I said before, I don't think most italians understand what "gay" means, or they might think it's just some form of rebellian or an experimental phase. The typical italian living in the rural italy has never met someone gay. They've never talked about the gay rights or even ever thought about it. They probably have never watched a tv show or movie with a gay character.

In the United States there is a lot more exposure to gays. In the USA there are 150 television stations, where as in Italy there are 7 and 3 of them owned by the government. So there is very limited talk about gays, gay rights, or gay characters in shows. Although I did see one time a station called gay.tv in naples, not sure if it's still around.

That said, I don't think the Italians have a negative attitude about gays, since they never think or talk about it. As far as gay violence, never really heard of any, except that one incident near the colloseum. The italians are much more likely to be racist and upset with all the immigrants coming from africa then they are to be homophobic. Everyday there is some news article about how 500 africans landed on lampedusa, or how some romanian robbed someone.

The media perpetuates this fear and anger towards foreigners, but not towards gays. So Italians don't have a fear of gays invading their villages. They don't even have an opinion of gay rights, cause they don't even know what being gay is. In the United States there is much more talk about gays on tv and in general, so people have more formed attitudes and opinions, negative or positive.

I am speaking of course in generalities, but I think for the most part what I am saying is on target with reality. Let me know what you guys think.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ItalianNYer,

Well, I'm not a guy (or maybe you meant it in the wider sense!) but every time the conversation round here gets anywhere near the subject of gay men, it turns viciously homophobic. For some, gay men = abusive Catholic priests / pedophiles. It's not just the adults - I am a lettrice in a state school, where the taunts are frequently of the "he's gay" variety.

So I wouldn't say that Italians don't have a negative attitude towards gays. I think it depends on where you are in Italy. In the countryside people are definitely less accepting of anyone who isn'te white / hetero.

Italians are not thuggish in their homophobia like the Poles for example. Homophobia in Italy is much more covert, and it definitely exists. I have rarely met an Italian who agreed with extending rights to gays, recognizing civil unions/marriages etc. In fact, Italy is one of only a few European countries that has no such legislation. Italian politicians often use derogatory terms to describe gays and no one says anything! How many openly gay entertainers have you got in Italy? Survey after survey show that Italians don’t want gays as neighbors and are basically not comfortable being around gays. To sum up, in my opinion, homophobia is alive and well in Italy.

Yeah when it comes down to making laws Italians aren't pro-gay, as far as I know. And it is ok to make jokes about gays. Italians are offensive about other stuff as well. You can be sexist in the workplace, no one will call you out on discrimination. During my interviews at a major italian company I was asked multiple personal questions about my relationships with woman that no American company would be allowed to ask. I of course lied in response to their questions.

Italians behave in a less restrictive manner. So when it comes to being offensive towards gays, they are less politically correct. My coworker sent an email out to everyone t