Hello everyone!

We're a family of five, planning to make the move to Marche sometime within the next half-year. This is a move we've dreamed of, and planned for, over many years. My wife and I are both broadly-speaking white Europeans - she American, me English (I'm part-Greek and generally get taken for Italian in Italy) - as is one of our kids. The other two are from India.

Having grown up in rural England and London, and also having spent quite a bit of time in out-of-the-way bits of Greece I'm used to the sort of casual racism that's built on ignorance and knee-jerk stupidity - it seems to be everywhere to some extent, more's the pity. Having lived in the US for the past 10 years I've had to get my head around a different and more insidious cultural racism that on the other hand has had no impact on my family as yet.

My question: have things got significantly worse lately in Europe? I hear things about Italy now that Berlusconi has got in again, but there again I hear things about the UK, France and practically everywhere else. Will our twins (3 years old at the moment) be in for a hard time, harder than anywhere else? I should add that my wife and I believe in dealing with everyone according to their merits and we try not to believe in generalizations, particularly along national lines. We aren't expecting the worst, but given what's all over the news lately, I thought it might be good to get some opinions from the field, as it were...

My concern for the little ones would be prejudice in the schools. There are stories in the news periodically about parents pleading for separate immigrant classes, claiming the immigrant children are slowing the Italian children down, teachers discriminating against immigrant children and the like. And you have the weird items in the news about dark-skinned people being excluded from public swimming pools, etc.

Normally I would dismiss this as fringe bigotry, but now with Lega Nord and Allianza Nazionale (the party formerly known as Facist) in power, it's official govt policy. Pray that the Italian electorate vote them out of power by the time the children are old enough to attend school.

Yes, it's school that has me most worried. All this anti-immigrant prejudice is a growing nightmare. The Republicans would like to make it an election issue over here, and Europe in general seems to be getting more xenophobic. It would be heartbreaking to move the kids 3000 miles only to have them become victims of some sort of apartheid.

I met an Italian pre-school teacher at around the time of the debate about separating immigrant children from Italian ones in school. I asked her what she thought about it. She said that at that age, they're learning to hold a pencil and to sit still for long periods of time, and so the presence of "foreign" kids made no difference whatsoever. Hopefully you will find a school with a similar attitude. Anyway at their age, they should pick up Italian so quickly that they will give any other parents/teachers zero ammunition for their prejudices.

Then again, when you have Lega Nord setting school policies:

quote:

Venezia, 26 agosto 2008 - Pieno appoggio da parte della Lega alla proposta dell'assessore Donazzan di introdurre quote per gli studenti stranieri nelle classi. Lo ribadisce il consigliere regionale del Veneto, Roberto Ciambetti che propone anche test di ingresso per gli alunni stranieri.

''Non si tratta di discriminazione - precisa il consigliere della Lega - ma non possiamo pensare di rallentare lo studio e l'apprendimento dei nostri figli solo perche' all'interno di una classe ci sono alunni che non riescono a seguire le lezioni in italiano''.

''Ci sono esperienze - afferma Ciambetti - in diverse scuole dove quello del dialogo e della comprensione della lingua e' diventato un autentico problema, per gli insegnanti come per gli allievi. Lo aveva gia' sottolineato il senatore e sindaco di Chiarano, Gianpaolo Vallardi, che era stato duramente criticato per aver emesso una delibera comunale con la quale poneva una 'quota stranieri' nelle singole classi.

Vallardi aveva posto all'attenzione su una questione molto delicata: l'aveva risolta andando incontro alle richieste di molte famiglie del suo paese, anche se da fuori c'era chi lo aveva tacciato, a torto, di razzismo''.

res/mcc/bra

(Asca)

Zuppa Inglese, to answer your question directly, whilst it is true to say that there is an upswell of racism or xenophobia here in Italy, primarily due to the policies of the newly elected Government, I am of the opinion that it is not bad enough that you should consider changing your plans and cancelling your dreams.

It is hard to compare countries on this matter, but racial prejudice exists just about everywhere (I'm sad to say) and currently, at least, Italy is not significantly worse than anywhere else. In my view, it is certainly very far from "some sort of apartheid" situation.

All this is easy for me to say, firstly because I'm white (and therefore am unable to speak from personal experience) and I'm not in your shoes with two young Indian children, but these are my thoughts.

Dave

www.dickenstranslations.com

I think it could be considered significantly worse than in countries where Lega Nord is not in the ruling coalition of the govt. The odd bigot exists everywhere, as you said; but a party of bigots holding the controlling votes in the ruling coalition?- that doesn't exist everywhere. They have the ability to set school policies, fail to enforce anti-discrimination laws, and the like.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Bill 2,

I didn't say it wasn't worse, hence the use of the word 'significantly'.

And as I said, to my mind it is not sufficiently so that Zuppa Inglese should consider not bringing his family here.

Edited my post to add the word "significantly". Ironically, that doesn't significantly change what I said.

Since you are coming from the U.S. you and your kids will be fine.

Yes people are less P.C. here. I prefer it. I'd rather know exactly how someone feels about me and people that look like me than deal with the stuff I dealt with at home.

Where you live will make a difference just like it does in the States. When I lived in DC I was shocked to realize just a few miles outside the Beltway were places I really didn't need to spend time in.

I live in the Historic Center of Rome. Haven't had any problems yet. Maybe if I lived in a smaller town or on the outskirts my situation would be less welcoming? I don't know.

As long as you're here legally, I wouldn't change your dream. Kids who have a strong self and know their culture will be better equipped to deal with racism than those who do not.

Good luck.

ooops I deleted a sentence by mistake.

I meant to add coming from the U.S. you are already used to dealing with racism. If you were moving from India where your twins are in the majority culture moving to Italy/Europe/America would be bigger adjustment.

quote:

I meant to add coming from the U.S. you are already used to dealing with racism.

I disagree with this generalization. Depends on where you come from in the U.S.- not just down to city but down to where in a certain city you live. My son is Italian and American, but looks completely Italian, has an Italian name, an Italian passport and was treated like a pest in the public schools in Trieste. While its true that Trieste is somewhat "fed up" with non native Italian speakers... I mean, I witnessed the most racism towards the Eastern Europeans and N. Africans- but my son still felt unwelcome in the school. I would think carefully about a move to Italy right now with this climate. I grew up in Berkeley, California, and my siblings and I are all colors of the rainbow (all adopted) and we felt very welcome by the schools, community, etc..., I do NOT see that kind of mentality as being yet diffuse here in Italy. Good luck on whatever choice you make!

nyc/c ragazza, I'm hoping that's the case. I hear you about the PC thing. Here I catch people falling over their feet to appear PC. I'm used to the UK where people are more blunt and, for want of a better word, 'real' about certain things.

Jenna, I'm sorry your son is having trouble with his school. What grade is he in (wondering if it would help the twins that they will have been in an Italian preschool situation before they start school proper)? May I ask if it's state or private? I wonder if there's a difference in terms of reaction to foreigners.

quote:

Jenna, I'm sorry your son is having trouble with his school. What grade is he in (wondering if it would help the twins that they will have been in an Italian preschool situation before they start school proper)? May I ask if it's state or private? I wonder if there's a difference in terms of reaction to foreigners.

Oh, we were just in Trieste for 5 months while I was a visiting scholar at the University there. We live in Torino now, which is a MUCH better city for kids and families! From the lessons I learned from Trieste I enrolled my son in the International Europen School- a STATE (i.e.: Public) school. Besides all the language instruction, more important to me was that the school philosophy is to foster multicultural understanding and a broad world view. It is also a more alternative type school in their learning style, textbooks, etc...Lets see, he has yet to start and so I am just keeping my fingers crossed that he has a good experience! I also forgot to mention that assuming your twins are adopted, I have noticed in Rome and in Torino more families with adopted kids of color (I mean an exponential increase!), so I think that should be a good sign for you and your family. A note on being PC, one of our family traits is being totally un-PC at times and it provided for so many great laughs over the years, but more importantly shows us all how stereotypes and prejudice really are quite ridiculous.

Jenna because you grew up in such a great area you see the situation in Italy as something very different and worse than what happens or happened in the U.S.

Maybe if I grew up in Berkeley I would the same POV but that would mean I would have never moved from that city, for college, work, traveled around the U.S. etc.

I lived on the east coast, the south, the west coast and spent time in New England. My parents are from another country. I don't find the climate here any worse than what is going on in France, UK, or Holland.

As long as the twins know who they are and have the love of their parents they will be fine. The poster is moving here with his eyes wide open. That alone will make the transition a lot easier.

Hello!

I've lived in Italy for about ten years now. My Italian husband and our family have moved around quite a bit because of his job. We lived in Veneto for three years. Veneti are "known" to be "closed" by nature.

The prejudices we experienced there weren't always directed towards myself and my daughter but also my not-born-and-bred-in-Veneto-husband. My husband is from Emilia-Romagna (which borders with Veneto). We felt "closed out" for awhile. Later, we found friends with other Italians from outside Veneto OR with Veneti married to foreigners. The fact is...we and our daughter eventually made friends whether or not it was with our neighbors.

So, racism in Italy isn't just about skin color or nationality but is also directed toward Italians born in different regions. We all know that some people will find any excuse to make one feel like an outsider. It is up to the indivivual to the better person even if it is tough for awhile.

Lastly, my advice to non-Italian parents just coming here is that Italian parents tend to overreact when they hear about any new child entering the classroom. We had to relive this experience last year when we moved to Tuscany. Many parents acted exactly as I expected-a bit overdramatic (remember that my daughter is a native Italian speaker). After a few months, the dust settled, including alot of folks' anxieties. Now everything is fine. Many of these parents are nice too.

I have the feeling this debate (about separating native from non-native speakers) will go on and on and on and on (like most everything here)and nothing with really come of it. I will warn you that parents DO contact the schools to have their children "placed with their friends" when entering elementery school. They, thus, have an excuse to keep native speakers together. But don't fret, I know many newly arrived Americans who let the school know that their children will have a private tutor at home. This isn't a solution to the problem but it lowers unnecessary stresses.

No one should get in the way of your dreams!
Peace , Laura

quote:

Lastly, my advice to non-Italian parents just coming here is that Italian parents tend to overreact when they hear about any new child entering the classroom

When I read this it hit me like a stack of bricks that THIS is why parents were so stand-offish and rude to me at my son's school in Trieste. Well, the Napoletan family was really nice... Why would they be so disturbed about a new student, any student?

quote:

I have the feeling this debate (about separating native from non-native speakers) will go on and on and on and on (like most everything here)and nothing with really come of it.

I am ALSO really scared about repeating the same experience her in Turin even though the main requirement at my son's public school is that kids are already bi-lingual! We have discussed this a bit on the forum, and I remember someone posting a statement by the Minister of Education (IF I remember correctly, which I probably don't) stating the separation of students will NEVER happen! This would be enough to send me back to the States...

Great replies - thanks for all the help. Do you think the situation would be different in a private school? Not being religious - or certainly not a Christian - I'm a bit leery of going down the Catholic school route, but on the other hand I've been checking out the Salesian school concept and there seems to be quite a lot to like...

Hi!

I didn't intend to add fuel to fire or come off as a gossip. I especially didn't want to scare anyone. I'm really sorry about that!

When I said that Italian parents tend to overreact, I meant that they did for a short period of time. Then things always tend to settle as it did for me in Tuscany. Now, my daughter and the other children are just fine. This includes myself and the other parents. Although it took alot of work on my part. I had to be the one to break the barriers and as (perhaps)unfair as it seems, I took the first steps to put them at ease with alot of kindness. It was later reciprocated by them.

I chose to open up and avoid reversing possible prejudices.

My daughter is in a private school and all parents have the same concerns about their children being held back by non-italian (or non-native) speaking children. However, many of these children prove them wrong by excelling rapidly and, thus, putting parents at ease. Children are smarter than their parents most of the time.

Italy isn't America and the culture and peoples' reactions to things are going to be different (as an Italian would feel transferring to the states-read Beppe Severini-o?). It's all part of the package.

Ciao, Laura

Being italian and not agreeing with the current Government I'm quite concerned too with the new wave of racism that seems to be pervading Italy...
This said I would like to specify a couple of things:
1. luckily enough in my experience in Italy there is still A LOT of normal, nice and rational people that do not judge people by their race, colour or else.
2. Le Marche can be a difficult area sometimes (I moved here from Milan more than 20 years ago and I'm still "la milanese" ) but people are generally welcoming and still more curious to know different people rather than suspicious towards them.
3. Racism in most cases has a lot more to do with culture (religion?)and economical issues rather than the colour of one's skin. I mean, a maroccan child, whose parents came here to work is generally considered more of a "problem" than an afro american child whose parents moved to Italy because they like it... I'm not implying that this is somehow reasonable, it's just to say that probably your twins will probably have very little problems mixing with other kids at school and in the place where you're moving.
There are quite a lot of non european children being adopted by italian families and, of course they can meet some idiot along their way but generally speaking they will have no problems integrating.

Your are reminding me that when my daughter entered kindergarten in California we put on her entrance papers that she was bilingual. Basically because we were proud of it and thought it an advantage. And so even though her English was as good as any 5 year old American they sort of branded her. By state law she had to be tested in English and given special treatment all of which pretty much pi_sed me off.

In Italy neither of my kids got such treatment. And they don't have any problems with parents of other kids or making friends. They go to a Salesian school and I am happy with the curriculam and the teachers. Though as always there are complaints. I think the advantage over public school in the complaint department is that since they depend on tuition for their survival they tend to listen to a point at least.

In our school there is a range of races and foreign kids. I don't see any prejudice, though I would admit to not really knowing what the other kids experience. Racisim does of course exist in Italy more in the north where we are. Our one experience is from an aunt who adopted a 5 year old girl from Columbia. The girl is now 19 and I've seen a couple of times where she was treated poorly even though she has been raised most of her life as an Italian.

For me as a foreigner, I know I will always be treated as one in some ways, but here I have more friends and a better social life than I did in California so I couldn't care less.

Please keep in mind we do not live in Italy full-time (yet!), so my experiences are limited...but, I have found people in our small town are WONDERFUL to my kid (7yr old) when we are there for a visit...but get nervous if we are there too long and start asking me about school...

found it weird at first and though they were just concerned that maybe he's missing too much school at home in the US...but not true - they seem to be worried I would enroll him in public school.

His Italian at the moment is fairly non-existent and limited to things that revolve around the playstaions of his Italian friends ;-) but we're all working on that. He's very American-looking, so, we do have that going (and Americans tend to be accepted fairly well in our town compared to others), but, he's very tall and very blonde and sticks out quite a bit - no hiding it!

I, honestly, don't know if he'd ever be accepted or "fit in" in public school there and, although it would be GREAT for his Italian ;-) I don't know if it would be a great experience for him...or, honestly, us, to have our neighbors and friends upset we are hurting their children's education (not going to get into if this is right or wrong!)

now...I could be TOTALLY wrong about this and, yes, he would be an oddity, but, one would hope, eventually they'd get used to us ;-) I have a feeling that that would be the case.

At the moment, for a number of reasons, (including the fact that we travel quite a bit and need educational continuity) he is attending a private correspondence school (Calvert) and we would probably continue to do that if we ever made the move more permanently. We also prefer him to eventually go to college in the US, so feel it's important to have a traditional, US educational background.