OK - wise people of the internet.

I've kind of hit rock bottom. I've been coming back and forth to Italy for about 1.5 years, looking for work etc. However, I just got my European passport a couple of months ago and was hoping that I would be able to find work in my field FINALLY.

Anyway, I had a job interiew yesterday in which I was essentially told that there was no actual job at the company- and that they would only hire me (maybe) to do some kind of quasi-secretarial work (nothing wrong with that but I went through 9 years of post secondary education plus licensing exams etc to get into this field - I have lots of work experience overseas- but no connections here and that seems to be the clincher) and pay me virtually nothing for that.

I'm extremely happy in my relationship - and it would be difficult for my boyfriend to relocate - so it looks like I'm stuck here for at least the next couple of years. But I just feel like I've completely given up my professional life for this relationship. And my professional life is very important to me!

On top of that (and please don't attack me for this- I'm just being honest) - I just don't like Italy. As I've said before, I find people treat eachother on a daily basis so badly (please don't tell me all about how other countries are worse - this is just my opinion- I realize it's controversial and not everyone agrees ). And everything is done illegally in some way- I'm shocked by things which seem completely normal to the Italian around me - like the corruption of the Rome police, tax evasion etc.

I just feel so miserable here. The only thing which keeps me going is that my bf is really wonderful and supportive. But I have this sneaking horror that I am turning into one of those women who gives up everything for a man - career, friends, family, language.

So-did any of you really hate Italy when you first got here. Did it get better? And career wise - did any of you manage to find a job in your field after a looong job search? If so- any job search tips?

rtpm - I'm not going to judge you for not liking Italy, and I am afraid I can't offer useful advice for you professionally, but I have observed you struggling over the last few weeks and want to offer some support. I moved to Italy to spend my life with my wonderful husband, and although I had a lot of experience in Italy previously, actually living here has been quite different, sometimes very stressful, and sometimes I think I will never fit in with many "ways of being". I can say that when you find the love of your life, there is nothing quite like it, and where there is true love, obstacles don't exist. We are so conditioned these days that as modern women our careers must always come first. (and clearly from your post you are at a moment in life when this may in fact be very true for you) As someone who worked and supported myself all my life, I suddenly find myself wanting to be a housewife, and facing a great deal of judgement for that on the part of family and friends.....who say, "but your career, what about THAT???". I was in Rome this weekend and was totally amazed at how warm and friendly the people are -- it felt like another planet to me -- at least in comparison to chilly hearted grim Piemonte....so you see the grass is always greener....anyway I wish you much good luck with everything!

rtpm
'Chin up girl'!

I've sent you a PM.....
Carole B

Thanks Laurie! I've never been to Torino but thanks for saying that you like Rome. I guess it's true that people are generally friendly- but it's other things- the crazy driving, the harassment of women (OK me) on the street, the bribery and corruption etc which I just feel totally shocked by. Also, the whole idea that all my work until now is worth very little as it's all about who you know here.

You're right though- I feel that my BF is the "love of my life" (ok I'm getting all soppy here - but it's true) and that's why I'm here. We have been having all these discussions lately because he thinks that deep down maybe I would be happy as a stay at home mum at least for a little while if/when we have kids. It's true that I nearly worked myself to death while living in NY and have lots of doubts about my chosen profession. But the feeling of having no money coming in (and BF does not make a ton of money either) is really really scary - and somehow makes me feel like less of a whole, productive person. I know that this is very un-Italian!

So-did you decide to "be a housewife" because that's what you want to do? Or did you give up on your job search?

I should say that I actually am working - I'm teaching English. But this is not my chosen field and the pay is really really bad.

Well, you've only been legal a couple of months, so the work search is yet fairly new. Can you mine BF and family and friends for contacts? Can you invent your own job? I don't know these things.
I don't see how people treat each other so badly here, but I live in a small city, not Rome. Maybe moving to a commuter distance small place would help? Dunno, because I could be quite happy living in Prati if I were richer.
Does it get better? Or do we get more flexible? I am so content that I am having nightmares about visiting the US. I altered my sharp points and gave up worrying about the rest. It wasn't hard for me, but I came here on my own and wanted it. It's different when you do it for someone else.

Good luck in overcoming all of the obstacles that you have encountered. How can you be shocked by corruption in Rome, just take a good look at the cowboy's White House!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Gil:
Good luck in overcoming all of the obstacles that you have encountered. How can you be shocked by corruption in Rome, just take a good look at the cowboy's White House!!!

You obviously haven't spent a lot of time in Italy!

rtpm I sent you a private message

I only vacationed in Italia about 2-3 weeks per year for the last 5 or 6 years. If it weren't for my family here (and my business) I'd be hounding relatives in the vicinity of Napoli!!!!

Thanks for all the lovely PMs! Sorry I can't reply but I'm not a premium member...

I'll try to keep my chin up and keep plugging away at my Italian.

Unfortunately my boyfriend has no contacts as he is the shyest person in Rome and also is not from Rome. He is in an entirely different business from me also. I have made a lot of friends here though - and many of them are foreigners who know people. But try as I might, nothing seems to actually happen job wise.

Hmmm...Prati - Magari I were that rich! Actually I prefer my part of Rome (not so wealthy but still relatively central part of Rome) as the people here seem more "real" and less rich. Also there are a lot of immigrants here - and I like being not the only foreigner around.

rtpm - I was going to respond - but read Laurie's post - and basically mirror her comments. And also yours, in the follow up.

It was very difficult in the beginning. I thought I would breeze in, find a great job, learn Italian in a month, and fit right in. HAHA Well, i have been here 3.5 years, I do not work (and I LOVE IT!) and my Italian is not perfect, but MUCH improved. I can get around so much easier, and I have discovered that everyone is so nice (now that I actually understand what they are saying, and I can actually converse with them!) It is really hard when you walk around in a fog the whole time, not understanding a word that is said around you. And I was always SO tired, trying to understand what everyone was saying.

People might get mad at this statement - but sometimes I think ignorance is bliss. haha I try to ignore the corruption and political mess. When I start focusing on all the abandoned buildings, or unfinished highways, or any other crazy things - I try to tune it out. Otherwise, it drives me crazy. Italy has been working this way for years, and they don't seem intertested in changing it, so I try to ignore it. When an Italian complains, I tell them they have the power to change things, but they choose to just complain, so it is their fault. (littering is a big one...)

WRT career vs. relationship - I had a "great" job that I really liked, in Seattle. I had moved up the ladder and was making good money. For me to have a job equivilent to mine in the states, I would have to work in Milano, and communte every day. I did not move to Italy, to never see my husband! Do I miss it? Heck no! Was that job, or any job in advertising better then my husband, HECK NO! I would trade a million jobs for my husband.

Was it hard at first not making money, and doing was I was really good at, yes. Did I get over it, YES!

And when I think about my job, I was actually happier when I was lower on the totem pole, actually doing the work, working hard, not up in management where I had to hire and fire people, babysit, and deal with the finances of the office.

The company that offered you the job - if you are interested - you should accept the job, get your foot in the door, impress them with your skills, earn some money, and meet people. See how it goes. See if it is a good fit. If you are miserable and stuck, then you can talk to them, tell them you are too advanced for the job. They can decide to promote you, or let you go. (are you fluent in Italian? what do you do for work?)

I am now a housewife. I don't know what I do with my days. I feel like I had so much more time in a day when I worked! I am always busy now doing something, something I enjoy.

quote:

But I just feel like I've completely given up my professional life for this relationship. And my professional life is very important to me!

In many industries, an employee is as dispensible as an old computer. When they don't need it anymore, it is thrown out. In advertising, I went through three different *crashes* at three different companies. I witnesed mass layoffs, and was the victim of one. It didn't matter how hard we worked, or how many hours we put in. If the overhead was too high, the employees were let go. I think (and hope hehe) that I am much more valuable to my husband, and he will never toss me out, like an old computer. :O)

Would I prefer that we had moved to the states instead of me moving to Italy? Probably. My family and friends are all there. I can speak the language there. I can drive there. haha

Would I give up Italy, and leave my husband? Never. Do I regret my choice? Nope.

I think, because you are in a big city, you see more corruption and unfriendlyness. Seriously, where I am, up north, in a smaller town, the people are so kind, and warm, and sweet. All the shop keepers love to talk to me now (that I can speak...) And Franco has a large, very warm and loving family.

quote:

But I have this sneaking horror that I am turning into one of those women who gives up everything for a man - career, friends, family, language.

There are basically three people who are there for you your entire life - your parents and your spouse. Your parents raise you to be happy and build a family of your own. I am sure that they are sad that you moved so far away, but they will want you to be happy, and start your own family. Your friends all do what they have to do in life to find happiness. So should you.

Don't feel as if you gave up everything for your man. Be happy that you found a kind, loving, wonderful, supportive one!! (because we all know that is not easy! haha)

Ask yourself, what is really more important? A job, or an exciting new life with a wonderful partner?


(man, I hope I don't sound too cheesy and lofty... hahah)

I hope you find your way. You should do what makes you happy.

Sara

I also want to agree with everything Sara and Laurie have written. Sara, congrats , you have passed the second phase of moving to a new country. It isn't ignorance at all but just accepting that you can't change everything.

YEAH! :O)

I went from this:



to this:


hehe

Sara, I echo Cristina, and I stand in awe! You have said it so beautifully. I am printing your post out as a reminder for myself in those (increasingly diminishing) difficult moments....I'm looking forward to meeting you Saturday!

Is it Italy that you don't like? Or maybe just Rome? I live in a semi small town and I am ALWAYS happy to return after spending a weekend in a large city. Here you can leave your door unlocked during the day, in Rome I was robbed on a bus! Maybe if you moved to a suburb, you would like it better (or even better a small hillside town).

Best wishes to you and remember that attitude is everything. There are still days when I am homesick and I miss my family, friends, job and car (ohhhh, my car ). If I dwell too much on it, I get very depressed!

I had to give up my job too and I know I will NEVER work in EMS in Italy (and my cert in America expired this summer...boo hoo). BUT the good news is that I have started writing again (which is something I have always enjoyed doing).

Just remember that there is very supportive community here on expats and tons of people who have gone or are going through similar experiences. Feel free to email me anytime!

Cyn

Thanks everyone. Cyndi-actually its quite the opposite for me. Im a dyed in the wool big city girl. I lived in NYC until I moved here (and Im from Sydney) and NYC is my favourite place in the world. I dont mind visiting the country or suburbs but I could never live there (of course to each her own!)

OK Id better study my Italian, keep working on the job search and hope phase II gets here soon!

I can answer that yes, it does get better. But it takes a lot of time. A bit less than two years ago, I was in your place. I'd just moved here from NYC, where I made tons of money (I didn't think so at the time, but compared to here it was tons), appreciated the convenience and availability of everything at my fingertips, and never had ANY desire at all to move. Then I met the love of my life. He had just started a business, and I blindly decided to move here. I knew he was worth it, and it's true that ignorance is bliss because had I known then how hard it was to be I would have still made the same decision, but my suffering would have started even before the move. The culture shock was BAD. I couldn't believe people just accepted all the messed-up aspects of life here and were happy. I was miserable and I tortured DH on an hourly basis berating EVERYTHING Italian. I posted bitter messages on message boards and got really frustrated with people telling me that it's all part of Italy's charm. It wasn't just a fleeting phase either. It probably continued for a solid year and a half. Only the past few months have I felt like myself again.

As far as career goes, I'm basically a housewife who helps out at DH's office/stores when there's something I can do. I don't mind the not working since being a housewife in Italy is a lot more time consuming than the average U.S. equivalent. However, I do miss the paycheck. I had fairly substantial savings when I came here which I've been slowly but surely burning through. If it hadn't been for those savings, I know I would have been even more miserable in the beginning.

I don't have much advice for you about the career issue, but I will say that even though I spent almost two years of my life being a nasty shrew, it does indeed get better. Not perfect, because that rarely exists, but decisively better. If your BF is the right one for you, you two will figure something out. If it's a choice between love and career, I think love should win out.

I still can't imagine spending the rest of my life here, and hope I don't, but now that most of my anger fog has lifted, I'm now able to truly enjoy those aspects of Italian life that many people fall in love with.

The hard part is believing that this will pass. Believe me, it will. Eventually.

Thank you Christi. I guess you and I are very similar. I earned what I now realize was tons and tons of money back in NY. I did not realize it at the time - but I was living high off the hog. I can't believe how little everyone gets paid here -even professionals.

I'm a bit disappointed though, that so many of you have ended up as "housewives". I mean that's OK if you are happy but I know that it would drive me completely bonkers. Until I started teaching English this week I was unemployed for 5 months and it drove me NUTS. If I was a housewife I would probably turn into the kind who sips gin throughout that day and pops pills.

I have definitely been giving my BF hell. Every time something bad happens (which is sooo often here) I end up in sobbing and ranting and raving - all at the same time. The latest incident was last night after I'd had a few drinks and was walking home with BF and a car actually sped up to try to run us over as I was crossing the street. BF said "oh it's all just a game to them - don't take it personally". And I said "what a BLOODY DANGEROUS game! WTF did that driver think he was doing? I'm made of flesh and that car is made of several thousand pounds of hard metal hurtling directly towards me..." And then I just started thinking about how mucked up the whole thing is - this idea that driving is a game in which you try to scare pedestrians. And the whole of Italian life is like that - everyone just seems to try to take advantage of eachother all the time and has so little regard for others(it does not help that my BF also runs a small business and he is full of stories of other people in his business and the horrible things they do).

OK - another year and a half and I'll feel like a normal person again?

I kind of believe that relationship is more important than career. But at the same time, my BF really loves New York and wants to move there eventually. The problem is that right now he really can't move because of the business and the fact that he could only get a green card if we got married. And we're not quite ready for that. But its kind of sad that I had to give up the city I loved to come here even though BF would actually like to be there eventually.

You're doing a really difficult thing - giving up your job, your circle of friends and family, the ability to understand every (or almost every) conversation on the street, local convenience stores, clothes sizes that make sense - just to live in a city that everyone raves about.

So don't be hard on yourself. If you can make it here - in the sense that you can live here for a year or so without going completely insane, or without losing your sense of identity - then you have achieved something. Maybe something that your friends back in NYC haven't done.

If you ever do go back there to live, you'll be far more aware of how some people have to struggle to adapt, far more tolerant of cultural differences - a more aware, more flexible, more interesting "you".

It'll be something that you can put on your CV - the ability to survive in a non-English environment, where you have had to start at base. I promise you - these are really hard-won skills and ones that you won't lose easily.

I don't think that things come easily in Italy. But I do think that contacts you make can eventually lead to situations that will interest you. Have a chat to your local friendly bar owner. Come to Prati - where I live, incidentally - or any other area of Rome. You will meet people interested in your background, or maybe interested in your professional background. Get out there, with a smile on your face, and make contacts. Something will happen, someone will say "And can you do this...?" and you'll find something that will interest you.

You're in the fortunate position of not having to pull in X salary per month, so maybe you could use this period of finding out what you can do, and what interests you.

Not sure how we can pm etc, but I'd be happy to help in any way I could. Even if you only wanted to meet up for a drink...

Don't worry everything you feel is perfectly normal - we all go through it after arriving, especially when you've had a good career at home.

I worked in politics and lived in London for twelve years before coming here and boy was it a shock! I had to re-evaluate everything about my life. Before coming here my career defined me as a person, not anymore.

I guess you have to be honest with yourself. If you want to have a high flying career, if it's the most important thing to you, Italy is probably not the best place.
If you can be more flexible about your priorities, perhaps make your goals now to learn Italian and make some friends and worry about your career later then you'll be happier here.
I would say relax a bit take some time to discover new things about yourself, this is a great opportunity for you, you just have to keep reminding yourself of that.

As for not liking Italy, give it some time, you probably feel very isolated (I did) at the moment and that can make you a bit hostile to your surroundings. I bet after a year or two you'll be much more forgiving.

Anyway if you ever want to get out of Rome you're more than welcome to come over to Pescara (it's only 2 hours away). I'd be happy to show you round and I'm always up for a good old whinge about Italy!

rptm:

well, since i don't consider myself a housewife anymore, i thought i'd respond (as you said you've been wondering about working). i've been in italy for almost three years: i left a very good, decent-paying job in washington D.C. to work as an assistant at a study abroad program in Italy. it was actually really good for me, and at the same time, i fell in love with this Italian guy. When the job ended and it was time for me to go home, it was really hard to leave him, so I came back to Italy after four months home in the states.

This ended up being a lot more challenging than I thought it would (coming back for SOMEONE, and not with any plans in mind), and it was hard for me to adjust to not working, after having just spent my last year in italy working. also, i didn't like being supported by him, being so dependent, etc. We got married, and I vowed i would work. i had to do SOMEthing.

it took longer than i hoped, and i had to abandon my hopes of working in graphic design (lack of connections in small town Le Marche), but i found a job as an English teacher with a private school. it also took a while for me to adjust to that--to feel like teaching English was something that I could substitute for graphic design, but once i started working more frequently, getting a lettrice position at the local school etc., i felt like i was accomplishing something. it was so nice to be earning my own money, to have money to spend and money to help out with--i felt like i was contributing.

And while i still teach english, and now really enjoy it (finally i work more than just part time!), the most wonderful thing is that, with the connections i have made, i have found some opportunities to design websites--the thing that i had been hoping to do in the first place. it took a lot of patience and a little bit of luck, but i'm working on one website now and should be starting another one soon. perhaps it's that i have a job that i can do freelance, but i really think that it's just a matter of having that patience, of taking advantage of even the smallest opportunities (that job that you are looking into, for instance), of meeting even the most random people who will turn up later and be that connection that you need. also, don't be afraid to do something for the 'time being.'

maybe it's also important to get out of the city a little. if you feel like you don't like italy, take a day trip to viterbo or somewhere smaller--get a feel for being away from rome. it's important even for me, living in a small, charming little town, to go to big cities every once in a while, to find things i miss about being home in america.

it sounds like you have made progress, though--doing the interviews etc. it just takes longer, here, i think, and you have to put up with more. believe me, there are days when i wonder if my degree in english writing will ever materialize here (they don't HAVE a creative writing degree, so how do i get mine to transfer over??), but i just think, always, take things one day at a time. that's my motto.

good luck! i hope you find the job you are looking for AND fall in love with italy again!

-Jackie

RTPM - I was thinking about you most of the day, and thinking about my original post to you, and your initial reply.

quote:

Thanks everyone. Cyndi-actually its quite the opposite for me. Im a dyed in the wool big city girl. I lived in NYC until I moved here (and Im from Sydney) and NYC is my favourite place in the world. I dont mind visiting the country or suburbs but I could never live there (of course to each her own!)

OK Id better study my Italian, keep working on the job search and hope phase II gets here soon!

Just because Italy works for me, it doesn't have to work for everyone, you included.

It is hard to offer words of encouragement without knowing your age, occupation, history etc.

For me, the best thing in the world was meeting my husband, and all that it includes. Just because I am SOOO happy to be a housewife and out of advertising, doesn't mean that everyone would share in my life choice.

I, too, left behind a sack of friends and family, a great job and(especially compared to here) a sack of soldi. But the money and career has become so unimportant to me.

Next year I will be 40. I don't feel I have missed out on anything in life. I have played, travelled, dated, loved, learned, had a career, earned a college degree, and finally found my sole mate, and moved to a beautiful foreign country, and am free to enjoy my life with him.

But, that does not mean it is the life for you. Italy is not for everyone. I was thinking about your first post, thinking that perhaps you were stating something that you knew wasn't working. You don't want to be here. You want to return to your life in NY. I think "verballizing" it was a first big step. You shouldn't be here if you are not happy. The last thing you want to do is end up resentful, especially towards your BF, for giving up your "life