So I am looking for a new apartment in my area of Rome (Piazza Vittorio, a multicultural neighbourhood in the heart of Rome) and I came across this ad in Porta Portese:

PRINCIPE AMEDEO (zona Termini p.zza Vittorio) app.to 1°piano 65mq arredato 2 camere cucina abitabile bagno termoautonomo affaccio interno silenzioso pref. italiani referenziati no agenzie E 1250

I was shocked! Isn't this illegal housing discrimination? Does anyone know the Italian law on this? I'm particularly angry as Via del Principe Amedeo is in the heart of multicultural Piazza Vittorio and is mainly Bangladeshi and Pakistani.

I want to report this ad to the relevant bodies (something like the EEOC in the US). Can anyone tell me if there is anything I can do?

Sorry, but I know anything about the laws on this.
All I can say is good, good grief. The owner does sound quite an idiot, and I don't think that s/he will get 1250E for 65mq very easily. Fool.

1250 euro for a 65 square meters furnished apartment in a central area of Milano or Rome is about average.
Ramona, check out so-called Legge Mancino, which is the main Italian act against discrination, but I fear it only deals with "violent" racism and discrimination.

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Originally posted by Delina:
Sorry, but I know anything about the laws on this.
All I can say is good, good grief. The owner does sound quite an idiot, and I don't think that s/he will get 1250E for 65mq very easily. Fool.

Yeah as AliceTwain said Rome and Milan prices are much higher than places like Naples.

So isn't there a law against housing discrimination here? What about employment discrimination?

I think not yet. COnsider that Italy (post war Italy) is pretty new to multicultural society, and many legal instruments that are common in countries that have been long dealing with racial problems have simply not yet appeared. Even legge Mancino is pretty new, I think it dates back to 1994, before that racism was not a crime by itself, not even when it took up violent ways: an aggression was an aggression regardless of its racial causes. And there is still debate on whether this law must be applied to nonracist discriminations or not (I am mainly thinking about anti-homosexual discrimination and crimes, like the case of the girl raped in Viareggio a couple of months ago because lesbian, or about the case of the guy beaten up in Bologna because leaving the Cassero, a local GLBT cultural institution).

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Originally posted by AliceTwain:
I think not yet. COnsider that Italy (post war Italy) is pretty new to multicultural society, and many legal instruments that are common in countries that have been long dealing with racial problems have simply not yet appeared. Even legge Mancino is pretty new, I think it dates back to 1994, before that racism was not a crime by itself, not even when it took up violent ways: an aggression was an aggression regardless of its racial causes. And there is still debate on whether this law must be applied to nonracist discriminations or not (I am mainly thinking about anti-homosexual discrimination and crimes, like the case of the girl raped in Viareggio a couple of months ago because lesbian, or about the case of the guy beaten up in Bologna because leaving the Cassero, a local GLBT cultural institution).

This seems odd as you would think a law against "hate crimes" would not be the first step you would logically take against racism. I personally feel that, as you say, a beating is a beating and a rape is a rape and laws already exist to prosecute people for those crimes whether they are motivated by racial hatred or not. Those crimes are already criminal acts.

But the more insidious everyday racism (which needs special legislation as without it these acts are permissible) stems from things like employment and housing discrimination. This is what needs to be legislated against specially.

If this landlord can actually say in his ad that he prefers Italians - there must be lots of other landlords who do not come out and say it in an ad but in fact actually discriminate against foreigners.

Actually, I feel that a lwa would be anyway a quite dull weapon against that kind of insidious everyday racism. That is one issue that should be better fought with other instruments, cultural insturmentss in first place. This does not meant that a law against them would be useless, just that it would not the the most effective weapon to fight off those feelings. In the long range, multicultural programs in schools, a highier multicultural presence on TV (when Italy has about 4.5% of non-EU immigrants, TV and radio should have a 10% presnece of firegners from all over the world in all kind of programs, from news to fiction to shows, and in all kind of roles), different policies about news, be it tv or press (stop definiig a criminal by his or her origin, for instance: just call that person a man or a woman or a criminal or whatever, just not "an African" or "a Rumenian") would all be more efficient. In the short range: how about putting up a small demonstration in front of that house, with people dancing and playing right in front of that apartment. Or making the phone number of the person public, so that all can call him or her and say "I am looking for an apartment to rent in Rome, but I will not rent yours because you are a racist"?

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"I am looking for an apartment to rent in Rome, but I will not rent yours because you are a racist"?

I may actually do that if I can work up the guts.

I agree that there needs to be a stronger presence of non EU immigrants on Italian TV. Come to think of it, the only two I've seen are the one Polish letterina on Passa Parole (well, Poland is in the EU now but only recently)and the black guy who reads the local Rome news. There also needs to be a much stronger presence of older women on Italian TV (and women in general who have not had tons of plastic surgery and are wearing mini skirts).

I do think that anti housing and employment discrimination laws would send a powerful message that this kind of discrimination is not acceptable though.

And the way they are always highlighting the nationality (so long as it's not an Italian) of criminals on TV is also yuky.

Yes, it is illegal but I would not recommend anyway to get the aprtment if the landlord is going to treat you like s**t.
You know what would be the best way to solve the matter? Take an Italian person with you or get a "raccomandazione" from an Italian who is close to the landlord or is a landlord himself/herself.
Yeah, this sound the Sopranos shot in Italy but it's the only solution I can figure out.

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Originally posted by Pola:
Yes, it is illegal but I would not recommend anyway to get the aprtment if the landlord is going to treat you like s**t.
You know what would be the best way to solve the matter? Take an Italian person with you or get a "raccomandazione" from an Italian who is close to the landlord or is a landlord himself/herself.
Yeah, this sound the Sopranos shot in Italy but it's the only solution I can figure out.

Actually, I have no interest (at all!) in renting from this racist landlord. I'd rather stay in my old apartment than have to interact with a person like that (specially since I'm a foreigner!) However, I was just shocked to see this ad.

Actually I spoke to an Italian lawyer friend and he tells me that this ad is completely legal in Italy. There is nothing here similar to the 1968 Civil Rights Act in the US (and similar legislation in other countries) which prohibit housing discrimination.

Ok, Ok, relax, calm down.

The landlord is in his right to say it, he is not breaking any law, because he is saying "PREFERABLY" Italian, not ONLY TO ITALIANS.

Then, unfortunately, this kinds of apartments are rented to one person, that expecially in largher urban areas, SUBLET to his own connationals, making them pass as relatives, ending up in 20 in 65 mSQ.
It is not easy to send them away once you have a registered contract if you want to get rid of them, so many protect themselves by saying "preferably to italians"

Ok, once again, before youaccuse me of beying a racist -which I am not- Landlords have no defense when it comes up to bad behaviour of tennants, or even when they do not pay, exasperation takes in and people act like this.

Alessandra, this is a furnished rental, likely with a 6 months contract, not a long-term one!

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Originally posted by Alessandra Federici:

Then, unfortunately, this kinds of apartments are rented to one person, that expecially in largher urban areas, SUBLET to his own connationals, making them pass as relatives, ending up in 20 in 65 mSQ.
It is not easy to send them away once you have a registered contract if you want to get rid of them, so many protect themselves by saying "preferably to italians"

Yes but this is the very essence of racism - saying that just because some people of whatever race, ethnicity, sexual orientation etc behave in a certain way they ALL do.

Anyway, if I ever buy an apartment and want to rent it I'm going to put in my add "preferisco stranieri" because IMHO I've heard too many stories of Italians not paying their rent and refusing to move out at the end of the lease. (tongue planted firmly in cheek BTW - but it is true that I've heard tons of stories about terrible Italian tenants).

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I've heard too many stories of Italians not paying their rent and refusing to move out at the end of the lease. (tongue planted firmly in cheek BTW - but it is true that I've heard tons of stories about terrible Italian tenants

I've heard these stories too. I think the older contracts made it easier to get away with paying the rent. If foreigners could do it and get away with it, I'm sure that many would do it too.

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quote:
Originally posted by Delina:
Sorry, but I know anything about the laws on this.
All I can say is good, good grief. The owner does sound quite an idiot, and I don't think that s/he will get 1250E for 65mq very easily. Fool.

Yeah as AliceTwain said Rome and Milan prices are much higher than places like Naples.

BTW , you could tranquillamente find a 65mq place for E1250 euro in a good area of Naples too, so I don't think Roma or Milan is *much* more expensive compared with Naples.

I just personally think it's madness to pay such an amount - especially as we all know E1250 is a decent pay cheque in Italy.

I agree, but then Rome has lots of bridges. (I mean, in Milano in a good area you can pay up to twice as much: those 1250 are for a semidecent area. So now you know why I still live with my granny and mom.)

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Originally posted by Ramona:

Yes but this is the very essence of racism -

No, I disagree. It is just that there are too many things like that happening and some renters don't even want to think about dealing with it.

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I've heard too many stories of Italians not paying their rent and refusing to move out at the end of the lease.

That's why many renters apply the ALL FURNISHED and short term rule. See? It is not a racist thing, is a money thing. Oh, and I see the original poster -of the announcement- talks of REFERENZIATI preferably Italians, it definitely has to do it with money only. I believe that if you are a referenziata americana that show that can pay such a rent, they will gladly get you.

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Anyway, if I ever buy an apartment and want to rent it I'm going to put in my add "preferisco stranieri" because IMHO I've heard too many stories of Italians not paying their rent and refusing to move out at the end of the lease.

MMmmhhh...how does it differ from the preferisco gli italiani racial thing? Are you a racist against the Italians??

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Alessandra, this is a furnished rental, likely with a 6 months contract, not a long-term one!

Not, really. Here they do one year renovable tacitamente every year for fully furnished apts.

For half that much a month

I'm sorry but anyone read the want ads lately? The majority of job ads these days read "max 28 anni" or "max 30 anni." How is that any different? It's called age discrimination and it is standard practice in hiring here. I refuse to put my age on my CV because I don't agree with it. And if you are lucky to get your foot in the door and you are a woman over 30 with a wedding ring on your finger, you are GRILLED about your procreation plans. I can't believe Italian woman put up with this crap. There doesn't seem to be any movement to fight this. There seems to be various movements for the 20-something precari (like generazione1000.com) but women seem to content to just drop out the workforce/allow themselves to be bullied and not challenge this system. If one more person tells me that now that I'm freelance/unemployed I should "just have a baby" I'm going to scream. It's so patronizing. Sorry for the rant but ads like this just don't surprise me anymore.
Michelle

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Originally posted by Alessandra Federici:

quote:

Originally posted by Ramona:

Yes but this is the very essence of racism -

No, I disagree. It is just that there are too many things like that happening and some renters don't even want to think about dealing with it.

So are you saying that it's ok to think that foreigners are more likely to be dishonest than Italians merely because of their nationality? That is a classic example of racist thinking.

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It is not a racist thing, is a money thing. Oh, and I see the original poster -of the announcement- talks of REFERENZIATI preferably Italians, it definitely has to do it with money only. I believe that if you are a referenziata americana that show that can pay such a rent, they will gladly get you.

And if I was a referenziata Rumena - how would that be? How about a Bangladeshi with references?

You notice that the landlord does not say "solo referenziati" like most other advertisers (that would be racially neutral and therefore ok in my book) - he says "Pref. Italiani" therefore implying that he does not want Bangladeshis or Pakistanis (who make up the majority population of that street) whether they have references or not.

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quote:

Anyway, if I ever buy an apartment and want to rent it I'm going to put in my add "preferisco stranieri" because IMHO I've heard too many stories of Italians not paying their rent and refusing to move out at the end of the lease.

MMmmhhh...how does it differ from the preferisco gli italiani racial thing? Are you a racist against the Italians??

Not sure if you noticed, but I said that my tongue was planted firmly in my cheek (ie it was JOKE).

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Originally posted by Alessandra Federici:
[Not, really. Here they do one year renovable tacitamente every year for fully furnished apts.

There is an opt-out clause, but the owner can opt out extremely easily and does not have to go through a sfratto procedure. it means, you delay one month and you are OUT.

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So are you saying that it's ok to think that foreigners are more likely to be dishonest than Italians merely because of their nationality? And if I was a referenziata Rumena - how would that be? How about a Bangladeshi with references?

What's wrong with you Ramona? hold it. Relax, have more sex....Calm down!.
I first said that I am just analizing an ad. I have no side in it. I have no apts to rent and I am not a landlord.
Then I said that you keep everything as it is a race related problem, ignoring that if you are an Italiano but not referenziato you won't get the apt just the same. So it is only a money related problem.
Then I said that if you are a foreigner and referenziato you'll probably get the apt. Romanian, Japanese or Pakistani.

Stop looking at things on just one side. Mybe the renter is just somebody that is tired to be screwed out. Maybe is just somebody that -like other people here- assumes too much. Maybe is jusr a jerk.

Noticing by noticing, NOTICE that he says pref -preferably- italiani. Maybe he doesn't speak english?... He doesn't say NO FOREIGNERS.

Really Ramona, get a cup of tea.

Italy has signed up and fully ratified the European convention of Human Rights, which, amongst other things guarantees a citizens right to freedom from discrimination.
Unfortunatley it is only directly actionable if your complaint is against a public institution but you can use the legislation in other cases (i.e. landlords, employers etc...) to show that your human rights have been abused.

Oh and by the way Ale, I think you've been quite rude to Ramona, I don't think she deserved those comments.