I would like to know if people living in Italy for several years find this country err very racist? I realise that after 10 years in London and now almost 10 years in Italy I am starting to become very unhappy here. I speak and write Italian fluently and work as a translator. Ironically, the more integrated you are Italian society and the more you understand it the more it seems a long way from the nice warm climate with friendly people, beautiful coastlines and nice food. I find wages terribly low, this only allows me to rent a room on the outskirts of Rome (this is also due to my job being on the outskirts of Rome so I am not able to live in the centre if I wanted to). People here seem paranoid about immigration, they often ask me if I am from Romania (if I was what difference would it make anyway)people are always rude to me in shops. I work in a company of about 35 people, at least 30 of them think that all foreigners should go home and think that finger printing gypies is a good idea. I realise that Rome will never be a swinging multi racial society like London or new york but I didn't realise how bad it was here until recently. I think with the recent mediatic campaign against immigrants the really worst side of the people is coming out. I'd like to think its not like that. My fiance is Indian, things for us here are very tough. Italy is the first county he's lived in Europe, he's under the impression that all European countries are the same. I hope one day that I wil be able to return to the Uk with him. when I lived there I didn't realise what a decent and democratic society it is compared to this place.

Ciao, Kat. I too have been experiencing a change in how I am treated by some people here. Perhaps it is caused by the current immigration woes, and because people are fed up with all of the problems that they believe are caused by foreigners. Certainly doesn't make it right though...and to be mistreated because you are NOT Italian is incredibly demoralizing (same being true for ANY nationality experiencing the same while living in a foreign land).
I never felt like an outsider here until recently. When I arrived in 2001, I never really had a "bad" encounter with anyone. When someone would stop by my house while I was working in the yard and ask if the Signora of the house was available, I would smile and say that she was busy, but that I would be happy to try to help them. Now, the types of exchanges have changed drastically and I'm no longer smiling...sometimes they even make me angry. Like when I took my driving exam this past January, the stranieri had to sit in the front of the crowded classroom, next to the examiner's desk, just so that we could be observed while taking the exam. The examiner also tried to humiliate each one of us when we went up to his desk to state our names, etc., even making the Polish woman from my class read a paragraph out loud to the group while he laughed at her mistakes. He held my shiny new PdiS up to the light, making sarcastic comments about whether it was real or not, made a BIG deal about my being born in NY, scoffing at my being an American, etc.. Afterwards, I accidently drove my 3 inch heel into the top of his foot when I walked past him...whoops, I was SO sorry. (I hope I'm forgiven for that someday.)
Overall, I try not to let these incidents cloud my view or change my opinion about why I am here...the people who do these things are truly ignorant, but not everyone here is the same. (I guess I should add that I am blonde, blue-eyed and fair-skinned...obviously una straniera.)
I'm glad that you posted, as it truly helps to talk about these things. Hopefully readers will not take offense to the topic, and some will share their experiences/advice as well. Try to treasure the wonderful, giving people...they exist, but are sometimes difficult to find.

Sorry, but we had nothing but kindness and generosity from day one. Three years down the track, nothing looks remotely like changing.

My experience has been closer to Graeme's. Since '94 I can only think of a couple of prejudiced folks I've run into, which is probably less than I'd have run across in the States.

But still they're out there, in numbers sufficient to give a large victory to Pdl, Lega Nord and Alleanza Nazionale in the last election. The damage these clowns are wreaking troubles me more than the odd bigot I may encounter.

As a black woman living in Padova for about a year or so I can honestly say I haven't experienced any racism. However, I have seen how other blacks (mainly from N.Africa) and people from the Eastern European countries have been treated.
Kat67, I know its hard to deal with ignorant people but always hold your head up high and remember you are better than "them"

No, Italy is not a racist country.
It’s a country with too many ignorant and uneducated people who hardly know any better, and this, ultimately, is the problem of problems here. So many shortcomings this country has could easily be solved if only people read a little more, studied a little more, travelled and were open to the world a little more. And ignorance can easily lead to racism: in fact, it’s the needed prerequisite.

Basically, too many Italians react this stupid way to what they're not accustomed with.
If you want my opinion, this is enough to make you not feel at home and long for London – so yes, whatever the causes I see your point. I, for one, born and bred here, get tired of this country by the day.
But racism in the sense of “we believe you are inferior, a sub-human” (Untermensch, for the German speakers) is not the case in Italy.

If you look for racist nations, you can look closer to home. For instance, the English language your Indian fiancé speaks wasn’t brought to him by Berlitz, if you see my point – and I bet you do.

quote:

Hopefully readers will not take offense to the topic, and some will share their experiences/advice as well. Try to treasure the wonderful, giving people...they exist, but are sometimes difficult to find.

Well said, Lisann!

quote:

Originally posted by Graeme:
Sorry, but we had nothing but kindness and generosity from day one. Three years down the track, nothing looks remotely like changing.

Must be your charm... For the most part, I think that this is a fairly common experience as I find Italians to be very warm and generous people. For me, most of my experiences have always been very positive, but it is just recently that I've noticed a slight difference. (Didn't mean to suggest that I am in any way mistreated on a regular basis...I just think that people here in Latina, and probably the rest of Italy, are tired of all of the problems and want things to change. As a result, some are lashing out in anger.)

quote:

Originally posted by Bill 2:
I can only think of a couple of prejudiced folks I've run into, which is probably less than I'd have run across in the States.

Yes, it exists everywhere, and we (Americans) certainly have a shameful history to prove it.

I'm fortunate that I have never suffered racialist comments/attacks here in Italy (apart from one elderly gentleman in hospital who told me I killed his brother in the war! Poor old chap....

But having said that - I have become painfully aware over the last year or so that things are changing. It's subtle and never directed at me, but when I'm sitting lakeside reading the paper and drinking an aperitivo, I hear the conversations all around me, and yes they are all becoming more racialist than I've known before.

They don't like the number of reports of crimes linked to albanians, romanians, czecks, senagalese, egyptian...you name it, they don't like it OR them! They conveniently forget that crime was around long before all these 'clandestini'! Perpetrated by who? Yes, that's right... by Italians!

There has definately been a ground swell of 'anti anybody foreign' feeling since 13/14 April this year. It makes me sad to hear many of these comments - so many are TOTALLY uncalled for, but do, alas, follow the present governement's stance on the race question!

we are living in interesting times, times full of fear and terrorism. The pressure is building and people are venting. Look at airports, no liquids on board, laptops being opened and checked etc. Targetting racism toward anyone with a funny name or who looks Arab.
I have endured racism all my life growing up in Australia. Wogs, dagoes, dings, garlic munchers, you name it !

Please dont let the unintelligent people put you down, focus on the nice, open, friendly people around you and not the "racists" who are probably just opening their mouths to blow hot air out as they have nothing more interesting or uplifting to talk about.

what im trying to say, is dont give your power away.. STAND PROUD.

i can definitely sympathise with you their solare. but i also think it depends where you are in Italy. down south is historically more multicultural eg arabs,africans and greeks but where as up north they consider themselves more "pure" italians thus making them more racist.

Black american in rome haven't live here long enough to answer your question. I do feel that in all the big G8 countries people are afraid of "the other". Where I lived in America there were massive demonstrations downtown regarding a new immigration bill. That many of the people demonstrating were waving Mexican flags didn't sit well with the "Minute Men" (a controversial armed group of civilians who are guarding the border) type groups. Things got heated. Tensions are rising in America. Don't see why Italy would be any different.

My friends of color (chinese, african, caribbean) in the UK complain quite a bit. Has your fiancee spent a lot of time in the UK? Things are not so hot for folks who look even remotely like they might be from Pakistan. People need to remember just because one is Muslim doesn't mean they are a terrorist.

All this to say I don't think Italy is any more racist than any other European or "first world" country. I mean look at what's going on in France (remember the riots from 2 years ago?).

For JAPrufrock "If you look for racist nations, you can look closer to home. For instance, the English language your Indian fiancé speaks wasn’t brought to him by Berlitz, if you see my point – and I bet you do."

Well thanks for your message, I don't see your point at all but I know what you are hinting at! Yes I'm "English" but my father is Irish (catholic)from Belfast, he came to London in the 50's and married my mother who is English and protestant. He was considered an immigrant by some and had some problems renting a room "in those days", racism against the Irish Indians Pakistanis etc was rife in those times but we are talking about 50 years (and 3 generations) ago this does not hold true today to such an extent, racism can never be wiped out completely but things are better there than in most other nations. Yes my boyfriend is Indian but he doesnt speak English, so we speak in Italian. However his sister speaks English as she has a degree in languages and his great grandparents and grandparents worked for the English in the times before independence in India. I told him I thought what Gandhi did in India was fantastic after the repression by the English. He is not in agreement at all. His family are Sikhs and they think some things were better under English rule.

I'm not saying all Italians are racist, I am only stating what I have seen. Its not for me to critise Italy and for this reason I would like to leave because I don't like what I see and after all the Italians are free to say what they want in their nation. There are racist people in the UK too I can't deny this but it does tend to have a lower level of people with extreme right views in respect to other european nations with the exception of a few BNP people who are a minority. Surely whats happening in Italy is quiet dangerous. A mediatic campaign against people based on their race or country of origin backed up by the politicians including the interior minister and the heads of government. Surely these must be very worrying times for this country not something that should be taken lightly, I don't see Berlusconi's government falling from power before his 5 yr term is over so things can only get worse.

Dear Kat,

altogether I agree with you. My suggestion was that certain “debatable” behaviours in Italy are more due to a general poor educational level (search around at the Eurostat website for a comparison among educational levels in Europe: I try to build my opinions on facts and figures, mostly) than to an inner Italian bad attitude to foreigners, who tend to be very welcomed as a rule. I dedicated, what, 75% of my post accusing Italians of parochialism as you surely haven’t failed to notice, so I fully understand what you mean.
Also, the smiley at the end of my post was, in my opinion, meant to convey a light note to the point being made.

In a way, the story of your father proves my point if you think of it. I wouldn’t say anything of what the Irish had to endure in those days can compare to anything happening in Italy today. But I might be wrong. I was still playing a harp among the cherubs in the 50's.
Anyway, the 50’s are the 50’s and today is today, so we must just move on.
I guess we need one generation too; kids nowadays are used to having “rainbow” classmates and this does a lot of good to everyone.
And this Peninsula has seen much worse than Berlusconi, so this tide of s#17e will pass too.


One last thing: ok, I’ve read something about the plague of teenage pregnancy in England, but 3 generations in 50 years!

This is the sort of institutional racism, rather than personal racism, I find troubling-
the head Lega Nord guy in Milano wants to move the mosque and Islamic center out of town- preventing people from reaching their place of worship:

quote:

È il capogruppo della Lega Nord in comune Matteo Salvini a fare l´identikit della nuova sede degli islamici: «Dovrà essere in un´area poco abitata, anche in provincia, in uno spazio che crei spese a carico dei contribuenti. Siamo alla vigilia di una pagina di storia dopo vent´anni di parole e chiacchiere». Sulla stessa linea anche il vicesindaco e assessore alla Sicurezza Riccardo De Corato, che distingue tra centro islamico e luogo di preghiera.

Per il centro «serve un´area non residenziale, senza palazzi, ed è evidente che un´area del genere oggi a Milano non c´è».

The head of the Islamic center responds:

quote:

Ma non sarà facile trovare un accordo con la comunità islamica, che ieri ha ancora ribadito che il luogo di preghiera non può che essere in città. «Aspettiamo le proposte delle istituzioni - ha detto Abdel Hamid Shaari, presidente del centro islamico -. Con tutte le proprietà pubbliche che ci sono in città, ci aspettiamo che ci venga proposta un´area a equo canone. Se ci danno un pezzo di terra e poi sparano un canone altissimo, vorrà dire che non c´è la volontà di trovare una soluzione».

E sulla possibilità di spostarsi fuori città, Shaari è categorico. «Siamo cittadini di Milano, vogliamo poter esercitare il nostro credo a Milano, in uno spazio dignitoso e facilmente raggiungibile con i mezzi pubblici». Le distanze al momento, restano quindi enormi, da colmare per di più in tempi strettissimi.

Now the president of Milano province wants to fine Muslims if they block traffic in Viale Jenner while attending Friday prayers.

quote:

Intanto arriva oggi la proposta del presidente della Provincia di Milano, Filippo Penati, di multare chi intralcia il traffico nelle vie vicine alla moschea di viale Jenner, in occasione della preghiera del venerdì.

If this was a Christian church wouldn't they just block off the street for a couple of hours? Every town around here blocks the street and reroutes traffic on market day each week. Why isn't there an outcry to relocate the street markets? (because they're not Muslims?)

quote:

Every town around here blocks the street and reroutes traffic on market day each week.

I don't understand the connection between market day and religion, but then I guess for many capitalism is a religion.

The only blocking off for religious ceremonies is St Peter's Square in Rome, but then that is Vatican territory I believe and, as not a part of Italy, I reckon they can do what they want.

Blocking off streets, for funerals, etc, requires the involvement of the Vigili Urbani, and it costs money each time. I see no real reason why streets should be blocked off for ordinary weekly ceremonies: what is the problem? Why do Muslims need to block off streets? Italian Catholics in big cities usually have to wend their way through parked cars to get to church, why can't Muslims?

I can't see privileging a particular religious sect simply because they can't adjust to European reality.

No surprise you side with the Lega Nord position on evicting Muslims from their existing mosque on Viale Jenner and telling them to go pray outside the city. Anyone critical of Lega Nord policies must be very unhappy living in Italy, and should go back to their country of origin.

Those who dissent from the Lega Nord party line are just complaining endlessly anyway, it's all hot air. Those of us who live in Italy should sta zito and meekly hope that the foreign press will dissuade tourists from visiting Italy- only then will Lega Nord become open-minded champions of human rights.

quote:

Originally posted by jhelm:

quote:

Every town around here blocks the street and reroutes traffic on market day each week.

I don't understand the connection between market day and religion, but then I guess for many capitalism is a religion.

Not comparing the street market to a church- just talking about putting up a deviazione sign when the market takes place every week.

The police block the streets here for all kind of stuff- religious processions, festivals, bike rides (pedalate), fairs. Maybe Friuli is the only place in Italy that does this?

quote:

Originally posted by Bill 2:
No surprise you side with the Lega Nord position on evicting Muslims from their existing mosque on Viale Jenner and telling them to go pray outside the city. Anyone critical of Lega Nord policies must be very unhappy living in Italy, and should go back to their country of origin.

Those who dissent from the Lega Nord party line are just complaining endlessly anyway, it's all hot air. Those of us who live in Italy should sta zito and meekly hope that the foreign press will dissuade tourists from visiting Italy- only then will Lega Nord become open-minded champions of human rights.

Man, the bitterness! I guess living in the heart of Lega-Nordand has affected your ability to think clearly.