quote:

Since the issue involves a fine, it sounds on the surface like permission is not being sought, money for the Comune will not be forthcoming, and so, yes, fines would be in order. It has nothing to do with minority groups, it has everything to do with urban rules and regulations--think how irritating it is when someone parks illegally thereby causing you considerable inconvenience. In some cases, the vigili are whistled up and fines are issued.

I find it amusing the narrow issue of the fine is drawing your intense interest, while you don't bat an eye at the proposed eviction of Muslims from the mosque and your Lega Nord pals' efforts to move the weekly prayers outside the city limits.

Let's ignore the elephant in the room and focus on the minutia.

It has everything to do with minority groups- if this were the Catholic duomo, this minor traffic issue would be quickly resolved.

I don't recall addressing the issue of removing the Milan Mosque to outside of town, so I have no idea what you're talking about. You need to clean the spittle off your macbook screen, Bill: apparently you can't read the entirety of people's posts, so you just make up what you think they might have said, with some pretty strange, not to mention laughable, results.

quote:

if this were the Catholic duomo, this minor traffic issue would be quickly resolved.

How do you think it would be resolved, would they get a permit, would the city block the roads for them, or would they just ingnore the problem if it were catholics. Maybe a minor issue but it's the little things that irritate people and build support for hate groups.

quote:

I don't recall addressing the issue of removing the Milan Mosque to outside of town, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

Precisely my point. You ignore the real issue (remember this thread is about "Racism in Italy"?) and veer off into diversionary traffic law chat.

With "It has nothing to do with minority groups" you pretend the issue isn't anti-Muslim sentiment- it's just about traffic laws. This is like saying Jim Crow laws were about public health (keeping disease-bearing Afro-Americans away from the susceptible white population), not about keeping a minority down in their place.

I get the feeling you aren't too comfortable discussing prejudice and discrimination toward minorities, and would rather address less-disturbing peripheral topics. Makes sense given your expressed belief that prejudice is hard-wired into all of us, it's perfectly natural. Why would anyone think it's a problem?

quote:

Maybe a minor issue but it's the little things that irritate people and build support for hate groups.

The hate group we're talking about is Lega Nord, and they apparently have quite a bit of support already among Milanese given the last elections.

I guess this move is likely to make the lega nord even more popular because it arouses the anti muslim sentiment which exists in many Europeans (and Americans) at the moment. They are tugging at the deep seated fear that a lot of people have about muslims and islam in general. This is particularly difficult to deal with in Italy as here most people do not know anyone who is a practising muslim so they only have the stereotype images portrayed by the media which are nearly always negative. Maybe in the UK (and other countries too) you are more likely to have had friends who are pakistani (who are muslims) so your views of muslims will be different. Its also to do with hypocracy because to be truthful more people have been killed in UK, Spain and Italy by terrorist bombs put by their own people just think of the IRA, Red Brigade, Mafia, Spanish basque terrorists etc. I personally think that although the centre of Milan is not suitable for 4000 people (obviously the current venue is too small if they are praying in the street) the simpler solution would be to have a few smaller mosques in Milan (not on the outskirts) then people could still go to pray a they would in a church if they were catholic. It doesnt seem right to ask people to go outside of Milan. The other point that should be made is that some of the muslims are Italians and born in Milan so they have every right to a place of worship

Just another note on racism. The other evening I was waiting for the bus outside Panorama in Roma Est at about 7pm. At the bus stop there were several girls waiting for the bus, to my left there were 3 or 4 Roman girls (of European descent) and to my right a Roman girl (of African descent). At a certain point a car pulled up at the bus stop and a man asked the girl on my right if she wanted "un passaggio"

quote:

Originally posted by Bill 2:

quote:

Maybe a minor issue but it's the little things that irritate people and build support for hate groups.

The hate group we're talking about is Lega Nord, and they apparently have quite a bit of support already among Milanese given the last elections.

Right but you are avoiding answering my question. How would it be resolved if the group were catholic instead of muslim. You state it would be resloved quickly, how?

quote:

Originally posted by Kat67:
Just another note on racism. The other evening I was waiting for the bus outside Panorama in Roma Est at about 7pm. At the bus stop there were several girls waiting for the bus, to my left there were 3 or 4 Roman girls (of European descent) and to my right a Roman girl (of African descent). At a certain point a car pulled up at the bus stop and a man asked the girl on my right if she wanted "un passaggio"

Sorry, Kat, but I'm not sure what your point is: did the man think the black Italian was a prostitute because she's black? Or is it something else altogether?

quote:

Originally posted by jhelm:
Right but you are avoiding answering my question. How would it be resolved if the group were catholic instead of muslim. You state it would be resloved quickly, how?

I would use common sense (like maybe put up a Deviazione sign during prayer times?). Besides this is really a side issue- Lega Nord trying to evict Muslims from their mosque and make them pray outside the city limits is the issue- not how to block off a street.

Filomena, I was merely pointing out that this girl was born here but because she's black it was assumed she was going to get in a car with this man,he didn't make the same presumption about the other white Italians at the bus stop... imagine how that girl must of felt. You would also do well to read the post in the Guardian today, written by an Italian.

Link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/08/italy.race

Of course all countries have a degree of racism but the racism is propogated by the government here and this intensifies the stereotyping of how foreigners or in the case of the girl at the bus stop Italians who are not white are viewed. This then creates segregation and hate towards people who are different. If the institutions that run the country are racist where can these people go for help??

Excellent article Kat! I agree with the author- the Tosi ruling was disgraceful:
"Tosi had written a petition in 2001 calling for the demolition of all Roma camps in Verona, later stating that wherever Roma arrived, there were thefts. The court declared that "discrimination based on diversity is different from discrimination based on somebody's criminality", effectively ruling that to call all Roma criminals is acceptable discrimination."

BTW I admire your courage for speaking out. So many are content to let the current government do whatever it wants, as long as it doesn't affect them personally. Others even actively oppose discussing the topic- scolding us for "endlessly complaining", equating opposition to the current govt with "being very unhappy in Italy", and suggesting we leave if we disagree with the govt.

Again, Brava!

quote:

Originally posted by Kat67:
I guess this move is likely to make the lega nord even more popular because it arouses the anti muslim sentiment which exists in many Europeans (and Americans) at the moment. They are tugging at the deep seated fear that a lot of people have about muslims and islam in general. This is particularly difficult to deal with in Italy as here most people do not know anyone who is a practising muslim so they only have the stereotype images portrayed by the media which are nearly always negative. Maybe in the UK (and other countries too) you are more likely to have had friends who are pakistani (who are muslims) so your views of muslims will be different. Its also to do with hypocracy because to be truthful more people have been killed in UK, Spain and Italy by terrorist bombs put by their own people just think of the IRA, Red Brigade, Mafia, Spanish basque terrorists etc. I personally think that although the centre of Milan is not suitable for 4000 people (obviously the current venue is too small if they are praying in the street) the simpler solution would be to have a few smaller mosques in Milan (not on the outskirts) then people could still go to pray a they would in a church if they were catholic. It doesnt seem right to ask people to go outside of Milan. The other point that should be made is that some of the muslims are Italians and born in Milan so they have every right to a place of worship

Well said!

Now if only the province and city would allow Muslims to use several smaller mosques in Milano. Their reply is: there are no such places available in Milano, they can't be near residential neighborhoods or business zones, so they must go outside the city limits.

Ever get the impression that maybe streets and buildings aren't really the issue- it's having Muslims in Milano at all?

Actually I believe that any place of worship should be small and local. In the UK there are some big mosques and big cathedrals however, most people go to smaller places of worship such as churches, mosques, hindu/sikh places of worship etc in their own borough. I can't compare London to Milan or Rome, clearly we have a larger multi ethnic population in that city. However, the building of places of worship should be directly linked to the needs of the local population and the percentage of them practising a certain religion in that area. If society has become multicultural then it needs to reflect the needs of that society. I am not saying that Italians (of christian background and Italian roots) need to convert to Islam or start eating ethnic food no-one is eroding the existing traditions, only the Italians can erode their past traditions and they are doing so at a fast rate, mainly due to new technology, internet and globalisation. People in the Uk say much the same thing, ie: our British culture is being attacked they say. I've always wondered what they mean by this?? Do they mean shopping at small traditional British shops, or maybe going to the pub for Sunday lunch, well surprise surprise you can still do these things if you wish, just as in Italy you can still eat pasta and sing O sole mio, if you want.

Agreed, smaller would be better. But the city and province refuse to grant permission to use additional
places within the city for mosques- they've said they don't want them in residential neighborhoods nor business areas (all those stranieri around- horrors!). They did offer them a stadium (open air for those rainy days, winter, etc). And each worshiper would be charged admission by the city. What a deal!

I wonder if we might not lay a lot of the blame for current anti muslim racism on the US and the all out war on terrorisim. Anyone persons risk of being even injured by a terrorist is miniscule yet we live in a world dominated by fear of them.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill 2:
You ignore the real issue (remember this thread is about "Racism in Italy"?) and veer off into diversionary traffic law chat.

I think that when dissenting it is very important not to brush aside any related aspects of a complicated issue such as this one. By doing so we run the risk of appearing unreasonable or zealous and thus bring all of our moral positions into the line of fire (Like when an agent is sent into a peace rally disguised as a protester, but then begins to incite violence, thus damaging the credibility of the stance of the protesters.)

If there is in fact a public disturbance being caused on a regular basis in a city center without the proper organization/permits with the comune, the racists have something to hide their racism behind. We see Filomena doing this (not because she is a racist, but because her and Bill2's exchanges tend to back them both into opposite extreme corners... such is the BB slow motion debate), and we see Bill2 brushing it off to focus on the governments attempts to oust the muslims (not because he is a left-wing zealot, but again because of the nature of virtual debate).

As a dissenter myself, I feel it is important to address all aspects of an issue (public disturbance), so as to get the small one's out of the way to focus on the underlying moral issues (racism). Dissent must be very open and topically neutral, so as not to risk overshadowing or damaging the moral stances we are taking....

When we have unplanned manifestazioni here in Bologna, if there is a public disturbance, the police come and run everyone off, or fines are given (when it involves an organization). Why isn't this being done in Milan? If some Roma are stealing on a daily basis in the same areas of Rome, why aren't they being arrested? Doesn't take a super-detective to catch them. Does the government really think it is easier or cheaper to oust the entire group (most of which are NOT criminals)? Is it really easier to move all of muslim worship outside of Milan, as opposed to working with them to get a proper permitted/organized situation for them IN the city where they live?

Lega Nord types would not have anything to hide their racism behind if the rest of the government was actually doing it's job.


ok, rant over... for now...

edited: changed "insight" to "incite"... oops!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Justin B,

Very good post, Justin, but I would point out that Lega Nord right now is the Italian government, so they have no need to hide behind anything.

I haven't commented on the situation in Milan other than the apparent traffic issue because I really don't have enough to go on, so any opining at this point would consist of empty rhetoric--which as you correctly point out, can be counter-productive.

quote:

Originally posted by jhelm:
I wonder if we might not lay a lot of the blame for current anti muslim racism on the US and the all out war on terrorisim. Anyone persons risk of being even injured by a terrorist is miniscule yet we live in a world dominated by fear of them.

As someone who as lived in Europe for nearly 40 years, all I can say is: we can't lay the blame on any one body or country, easy as that solution may sound. I've watched as Europe went from post-war tolerance straight back to its centuries-old intolerance, and with no help from the US, South Africa or anyone else. With absolutely no provocation whatsoever, terrorists have viciously attacked European centres, so it is hardly surprising Europeans get the willies about terrorists and anyone who looks like they might be one. Unfair? You bet. But unlikely the US's fault.

I have to play the devil's advocate for moment. First, I work at an International University (and most of our students are coming from peripheral countries, only a few Europeans) and we are really fighting an uphill battle with these LEGITIMATE student visas! But, I think its always good to try and understand why even possibly open-minded Italians might not be completely racist per se but quite fed up with the immigration situation (thus, against foreigners). Many Italians probably don't frequent the immigrant zones, maybe don't have any friends or colleagues that are from developing countries, maybe haven't traveled much.. so, like here in Turin, all many Italians see is drunk, peeing in public, and often poor immigrants this becomes the image ingrained in their mind. I would react by thinking, maybe this drunk, rude, peeing in public guy came to look for work in Italy, didn't find it or makes very little money, and has become depressed and has turned to drinking. But many Italians may not process the same scene that way... I see Italians druken in public too of course, but there is fear about these differently dressed, differently speaking, differently looking people PLUS a culture of relative distrust, so I can understand where the culture clash has led to racist policy and a new anti-immigrant govt. NOT saying I support this, but the issue requires less judgment and more creative solutions (and TIME) to both integrating new immigrant arrivals and also helping Italians integrate into a changing society.

Many other nations have similar immigration situations, but haven't resorted to cultivating racism. Italians aren't dealing with any worse then others in this respect... sure this causes tensions and fears among some, but it should be the goal of any civilized society to cultivate understanding and compassion when this happens... not racism.

Umm, not so sure about Italy being the lone star here: I have read about problems in the Netherlands (of all places), the UK, Austria, France, and so on. Having opened their doors to former colonies and basically the rest of the world, these countries are now facing a backlash to immigration in general. Italy is unique in that it has effectually institutionalised the issue.

Jenna, sad to say, the average immigrant is not just the homeless wretch on the street, he is often the educated, well-spoken and -dressed individual, who still runs into flack on a bureaucratic level simply because he isn't lily-white. I personally know a man from the Cote d'Ivoire who had unbelievable problems in Switzerland: the guy speaks 4 languages fluently and has a PhD--didn't help him one bit, he was asked to leave the country.