quote:

Originally posted by Justin B:
Many other nations have similar immigration situations, but haven't resorted to cultivating racism.

It happened under the previous Federal government in Australia, only more subtly.

Hmmmm.... Maybe I'm a bit confused...

How do you get:

quote:

Milano refuses to allow any additional mosques to open

from:

quote:

Dovrà essere in un´area poco abitata, anche in provincia, in uno spazio che crei spese a carico dei contribuenti.

and:

quote:

Per il centro «serve un´area non residenziale, senza palazzi, ed è evidente che un´area del genere oggi a Milano non c´è».

?

My Italian isn't the greatest but it seems to me the question is where... not that they are being refused to open another at all.

If I'm wrong please correct me, but if not your statement only serves to help the Lega Nord as it makes their opposition seem like zealots... at least to them or their supporters, or worse to those on the fence... (to me THEY are the nutjobs of course.)

The same for this statement:

quote:

Policemen disrupting their worship, issuing citations, etc is nothing more than religious intolerance.

It's just not blanket fact... it COULD be true, but not necessarily. Again I hold that opposition (or dissent) to anything should be balanced and objective in each individual situation or discussion, lest one rob him or herself of validity, or worse to the cause itself... which I'm sure is not your intention.

I don't know enough about the muslim religion to know why if there is no room in the mosque that it be necessary to be in the streets or walks near the mosque to pray... why not at home? Or a big get-together in a park? I don't know. Maybe it's a form of protest for them being that they need more mosques and the city is not giving up any spaces. Maybe Islam holds that if not IN the mosque... as close as possible will have to do.

As long as they are treated the same way as anyone else causing what would be considered legally disruptive (if they are in fact doing so) then we cannot say it would be religious intolerance. Of course if fines were given, intolerance would be shouted either way... it's a damn can of worms for sure.

At any rate, any kind of extreme blanket statements worry me as they can often serve to strengthen the opposition. As dissenters we willingly put ourselves in the swords path... and don't benefit from willingly leaving gaps in our armor.

quote:

Originally posted by Graeme:

It happened under the previous Federal government in Australia, only more subtly.

Interesting... I'd like to know more about that... where were the immigrants from?

Statement #1

quote:

Per il centro «serve un´area non residenziale, senza palazzi, ed è evidente che un´area del genere oggi a Milano non c´è».

Statement #2

quote:

Milano refuses to allow any additional mosques to open

I think you can pretty much conclude statement #2 from statement #1. After all, in statement #1 they pretty much say there is no room in the city of Milano that meets their requirements for where this mosque must be. So you can conclude that the city of Milano refuses to open any more mosques - because there is no room in city limits. Or am I missing something?

Justin, there are between 60,000 and 80,000 Muslims in Milano. Many thousands of those are taxpaying residents of Milano.

Offering a site for a new mosque in a sparsely populated area in the province (outside of the city) doesn't work for folks who depend on public transit.

Stating that the mosque must be in a non-residential area and there is no such area in Milano isn't offering a new location in Milano.

If I'm helping Lega Nord by posting here, I'll cease and desist.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiffany:
So you can conclude that the city of Milano refuses to open any more mosques - because there is no room in city limits. Or am I missing something?

That's what I was thinking it said.... but they can't refuse the right to build if there is no space to build on. At this point if someone where to magically come up with a spot, there would be no argument (without of course then resorting to actually refusing the right to do it). It's the kind of language they use to hide behind. Textbook politician stuff!

Ma dai Bill! Don't go into the extreme corner again! Of course you're not helping them... and I wanna keep it that way!!!

But seriously, just trying to help with what I feel to be important things to consider (syntax, word choice, talking points etc) when dealing with matters of social opinion and public debate... If you can predict how someone will rebut a position you hold, the better you will be at defending that position.

I'm on your side on this one, but won't always go about things the same way.

Sounds like a two-punch: if the left don't getcha then the right one will. The Via Jenner mosque has apparently become too small for its faithful, who spill out into the street, blocking traffic. Solve the problem? Easy peasy, and kill two birds with the same stone: since real estate in downtown Milan is on a par with Manhattan, and you'd need a Saudi's ransom to even get permission to build or re-designate, let's suggest out in the boonies: affordable PLUS gets them out of the public eye. Neat: what human rights watchdog group can argue with that?

BTW it would be helpful if info on these matters came to light with all their intrinsic factual details, even if these don't on the face of it support the basic argument: whooping up enthusiasm for a worthy cause needs to be tempered with cool, clear assessments, otherwise, as Justin points out, you end up looking like a moonbat, discredited along with your argument.

Filomena, you giving advice on cool, clear assessments is too rich.

After advising me I shouldn't post about the Roma fingerprinting issue because it is, in your words "endless complaining", just "hot air", and showed that I am "very unhappy living in Italy", you suggested that I should leave Italy because I think it's turning into a nazi state.

Moonbat is actually a pretty good description of anyone who would tell people to sta zito and rely on the foreign press to scare tourists away from Italy, which would then cause Lega Nord to turn pro-immigrant.

But I gotta hand it to you- you've succeeded in steering this topic away from Racism in Italy, just as you managed to turn Fingerprinting Roma until a discussion about why we shouldn't discuss Fingerprinting Roma. Obfuscation is the objective, right?

"Umm, not so sure about Italy being the lone star here: I have read about problems in the Netherlands (of all places)" (Filomena)

Why are you so surprised by that, Filomena? I lived in the Netherlands for three, sad years, and one of the most surprising things was the amount of racism I found. 10 minutes of meeting my new boss's wife, I was told that all crimes were committed by Moroccans and Turks. From then on, it was a steady drip, drip of ignorance and racism, from educated degree-holding Dutch people, as well as non educated non degree-holding Dutch people.

As a disclaimer, I also met a lot of very nice, non-racist Dutch people too, but the amount of racism from such a seemingly tolerant society was staggering.

In my opinion, it's the ignorance and lack of public debate that causes the problems. The people who told me that XYZ were all criminals (and you hear the same old same old in Italy too, only XYZ are from different countries) had no other outlet for their prejudices. They'd heard it from someone, who'd heard it from someone else, and pretty soon it became "fact". The NL politicians some time ago didn't ever address the fear that immigration brought some people, and as a result (I think) you got the Pim Fortuyn "experience". Same thing in Italy. Lots of talk, not much real debate, and you get political knee-jerk reactions.

quote:

Originally posted by Justin B:

quote:

Originally posted by Tiffany:
So you can conclude that the city of Milano refuses to open any more mosques - because there is no room in city limits. Or am I missing something?

That's what I was thinking it said.... but they can't refuse the right to build if there is no space to build on. At this point if someone where to magically come up with a spot, there would be no argument (without of course then resorting to actually refusing the right to do it). It's the kind of language they use to hide behind. Textbook politician stuff!

Ok, but if they wanted to build a new church, would there be space? That's what I want to know.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiffany:
Ok, but if they wanted to build a new church, would there be space? That's what I want to know.

Me too! I think it's clear they want more mosques, but what is the arguable reality? Anyone here from Milan with some on the ground insight?

The vicesindaco and assessore alla Sicurezza of Milan Riccardo De Corato is quoted as saying "Per il centro «serve un´area non residenziale, senza palazzi, ed è evidente che un´area del genere oggi a Milano non c´è»." He's saying there isn't such an area in Milano.

My bet is, now they're actually looking, they'll find a place. See http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Religion/?id=1.0.2...n/?id=1.0.2320781177

quote:

Originally posted by English teacher:
"Umm, not so sure about Italy being the lone star here: I have read about problems in the Netherlands (of all places)" (Filomena)

Why are you so surprised by that, Filomena? I lived in the Netherlands for three, sad years, and one of the most surprising things was the amount of racism I found. 10 minutes of meeting my new boss's wife, I was told that all crimes were committed by Moroccans and Turks. From then on, it was a steady drip, drip of ignorance and racism, from educated degree-holding Dutch people, as well as non educated non degree-holding Dutch people.

I believe there are some prejudiced people in every society. The percentage of prejudiced people varies, as does the degree of extremism, but they exist in all countries.

The difference here in Italy under Lega Nord and Alleanza Nazionale is that racism is becoming institutionalized. As Kat put it:

quote:

Of course all countries have a degree of racism but the racism is propogated by the government here and this intensifies the stereotyping of how foreigners or in the case of the girl at the bus stop Italians who are not white are viewed. This then creates segregation and hate towards people who are different. If the institutions that run the country are racist where can these people go for help??

Well... 50 proposed locations is good news, and the photo on there certainly gives an idea of the scope of the situation. Then I ran into this one:
http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Politics/?id=1.0.2321192098

and this more on-topic but positive one:
http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Politics/?id=1.0.2291572387

Yeah, I just finished posting that on the Italian Politics forum. Racism?

quote:

You would also do well to read the post in the Guardian today, written by an Italian.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/08/italy.race

Here's more commentary on the Italian court ruling on Tosi's case:
"A Cambridge-educated attorney seated next to me on a recent flight lamented seeing Pakistanis and Africans throughout Europe. Of course, “it’s not racism,” she insisted, “but as a European you just like to see European people in European cities.”

"Italy’s highest appeals court gave legal force to my seatmate’s dubious logic, authorizing discrimination against Roma people, known as gypsies, on the grounds that “all the gypsies are thieves.” Even Roberts, Scalia and Thomas would likely recoil from such a racist ruling.

"One of those exonerated in the case was the head of the anti-immigrant Northern League, since elected mayor of Verona. It’s as if David Duke had won an election as Louisiana’s governor instead of being soundly defeated.

"Violating civil liberties to a degree not even contemplated by the Patriot Act, Prime Minster Silvio Berlusconi’s government announced it was fingerprinting all Roma citizens in Italy — and only Romas."

Anti-Muslim sentiment isn't only on the rise in Italy- Swiss nationalists force popular vote on banning Muslim call-to-prayer minarets

quote:

Originally posted by Bill 2:
"A Cambridge-educated attorney seated next to me on a recent flight lamented seeing Pakistanis and Africans throughout Europe. Of course, “it’s not racism,” she insisted, “but as a European you just like to see European people in European cities.”

Wow, I'm just going to be stating the obvious, but I'm just so appalled: that woman obviously has no idea what the word racism means. Just... wow. With all the racism that has gone on throughout history, mankind is still repeating it over and over... and worse yet, some of us still don't know what "racism" and "prejudice" are. This is beyond pathetic.

quote:

Here's more commentary on the Italian court ruling on Tosi's case:
"A Cambridge-educated attorney seated next to me on a recent flight lamented seeing Pakistanis and Africans throughout Europe. Of course, “it’s not racism,” she insisted, “but as a European you just like to see European people in European cities.”

So - according to this lady can I presume that I could say that "I would just like to see Native Americans in America, Aborigines in Australia and Maoris in New Zealand.....?"

With a brain that size - how did she ever pass The Bar and become an attorney!

Statements and a mentality of that kind just
beggars belief

quote:

Jenna, sad to say, the average immigrant is not just the homeless wretch on the street, he is often the educated, well-spoken and -dressed individual, who still runs into flack on a bureaucratic level simply because he isn't lily-white.

I don't think that is what I said. My point was that it wouldn't hurt for those of us who seem to be completely bewildered and confused as to why many Italians have such racist tendencies to put ourselves in their shoes. This may be key to building tolerance, understanding, and eventually appreciatation for living in an ever-increasingly diverse society.
I also work with people from all over the world. I have a side project as a lawyer here helping a friend with her Refugee Project NGO, so you are preaching the converted on the "working with highly educated capable immigrants"... that is my LIFE! and i love it

quote:

With a brain that size - how did she ever pass The Bar and become an attorney!

Cut her some slack, folks. Prejudice of that sort is hard-wired into everyone. It was a survival mechanism in early times and now we all have it within us. What could be more wholesome and natural?