quote:

Alot of crime is coming from immigrants who come here with no work and turn to crime to live. There have been more stabbing and crimes envolving immigrants alot who are Romanina.

Yes, that's the Lega Nord and sensationalist media version. But police statistics show 20%- 25% of crime is from immigrants. Why aren't you up in arms about the 75% of crimes Italians are committing?

I bet this story had the leghisti in difficoltà this must be why we didn't get to hear about it!

http://quotidianonet.ilsole24ore.com/2008/06/23/99218-b...ll_annegamento.shtml

In this "new" world of ours, now that people are becoming more mobile, it's interesting to see other countries dealing with what we in the USA have struggled with throughout our history.

I'm certainly no expert on this topic but I seem to remember learning in some sociology class (ancient history) that crime is usually directly related to education and economic status. Since recent immigrants, due to a number of reasons, often find themselves lagging in these two important areas, one might conclude that higher crime rates are to be expected. You would think this should motivate the politicians of any host country to educate and assimilate new groups into their culture as soon as possible. Instead, they look to make them scapegoats for their own poor governance.

That being said, I think there is a shared responsibility between a host country and the immigrants that look to settle there. I would not expect to relocate to Italy and not learn the language, culture and customs of its people and participate in it's daily life. This would help me appreciate my new land and help my new neighbors to know and not fear me. It aids in acceptance when new immigrants show an appreciation for their new land.

Bill, with regards to statistics, I'm not very knowledgeable but would ask, do immigrants represent 25% of Italy's population? If not, I don't think those rates help their cause. If so, it would show despite their handicap, they are no more violent than the citizenry.

Tony

kat: a majority of the comments on that last article you linked are quite chilling as well...

aruff: a great post with good points... and of course you are right... since immigrants don't make up 25% of the italian population the statistics actually show that the average immigrant is more likely to commit a crime then a native, and the reasons you sight for this would seem to be factors... BUT...

The issue is that if the government's actual goal was to lower crime, it follows that to spend all of its time and money focusing on what amounts to only a fourth of the problem demonstrates either:

A) an incredible lack of basic reasoning skills... or:

B) that the goal is not to lower crime, but to persecute a mass of people based on their race.

I find both to be unacceptable in a modern democratic civilization.

quote:

Originally posted by aruff:
You would think this should motivate the politicians of any host country to educate and assimilate new groups into their culture as soon as possible.

Another good point. The governments actions don't match what would seem to be the rational approach to dealing with immigration... but again we run up against the problem of lumping modern immigrants in with "Gypsies"... who have been here longer then Italy has been a country and don't have much intention of integrating into the italian society, they have their own which they want to maintain separate. The situation is the kind that I would oft be inclined to refer to as a "Doozie"...

quote:

Bill, with regards to statistics, I'm not very knowledgeable but would ask, do immigrants represent 25% of Italy's population? If not, I don't think those rates help their cause. If so, it would show despite their handicap, they are no more violent than the citizenry.

You've missed the point entirely. I'm not trying to justify the 25% of crimes committed by immigrants- they should be punished for their crimes.

But you ignored the point that there is a huge uproar about that 25% and very little said at all about the 75% of crimes committed by Italians. The same happens in the US- Hispanic crime gets the headlines because it sells papers and helps xenophobes like Lou Dobbs and Tom Tancredo further their careers. No one is interested in the majority of crime committed by non-Hispanics.

It isn't about which group is more criminal- it's about fanning the flames of ignorance and fear for political and financial gain.

Well put Bill2

Bill,

I was trying to understand how the immigrant population crime statistics related to the make-up of the Italian population. I did miss your point entirely and for that I accept my due repremand . That being said, I agree with the point that this appears to be a smokescreen for ineffective crime fighting. After reading the book "Gomorrah" by Roberto Saviano, I'm not surprised.

Tony

On the topic of racism in Italy, I believe that (as some people have stated before) it is not specifically an Italian problem, but becoming a European problem.
France, The Netherlands, Austria, Belgium,.. they all have their strong extreme right political parties. Parties that over time have become always more strong.
Their main goal is to spread fear. Fear for lack of money, fear for violence, fear for loss of own identity, fear of losing control in 'their' country. And this is working. This is working also, because there aren't many people who are actually saying the opposite.
Then there is the media who basically controls what people get to see and is often eager to note that it is 'yet another immigrant' who did this or that.

And people soak it up and after some time they too are convinced that it's all the fault of the immigrants, rather than the state's or police's (readoliticians) lack of helping or if necessary convicting people who did something wrong whichever nationality they have.

quote:

France, The Netherlands, Austria, Belgium,.. they all have their strong extreme right political parties. Parties that over time have become always more strong.

Pray that they don't become the lynchpin of the majority coalition as Lega Nord has in Italy. They basically can write their own ticket now, and Berlu has to tow their line, lest they bring down his government as they did before.

This week the peripatetic mosque of viale Jenner has moved from the bicycle race track to PalaSharp, which charges a higher rent than they can afford (particuarly now that the congregation has dwindled from 4,000 down to 300-400). The mosque is looking at a theatre tent which is not booked until September- imagine, praying in the same place for more than one week at a time!

Viale Jenner mosque in Milano had to go- blocked the sidewalk for a few hours on Friday evenings.

Now in Genova, a petition against having a new mosque in the city garners 1,600 signatures in only 2 hours.
http://www.stranieriinitalia.it/attualita-a_genova_boom...la_moschea_5268.html

More anti-Muslim attitudes from Genova.

Lega Nord opposes allowing Muslims to pray at la Commenda, because...

quote:

“Noi diciamo no alla moschea e al centro - spiega Francesco Bruzzone, segretario regionale della Lega ed ex presidente del consiglio regionale nella scorsa legislatura a maggioranza di centrodestra - perchè diventerebbe un centro mono-religioso. I cristiani hanno la chiesa di San Giovanni attigua alla Commenda, gli ebrei hanno la sinagoga. E così la Commenda, simbolo della cristianità genovese sarebbe solamente in mano ai musulmani”.

Tra bandiere e magliette bianche con la croce di San Giorgio, vessillo dei genovesi, i leghisti spiegano le ragioni del rifiuto e i timori che una moschea possa diventare un centro di reclutamento per terroristi. “Questo palazzo - dice Alessio Piana, consigliere comunale - serviva come ricovero per i pellegrini cristiani e per i crociati che tornavano feriti dalla Terra Santa. Per lungo tempo sono state conservate qui le reliquie di San Giovanni Battista. Piuttosto assegnino la Commenda per sostenere la storia della città”.

quote:

“Noi diciamo no alla moschea e al centro... ...perchè diventerebbe un centro mono-religioso."

To paraphrase: "The Christians have their church, the Jews their Synagogue, but if the Muslims have their mosque the center would become mono-religious..."

Am I missing something, or is this another example of the blank-stare cognitive-function-lacking rhetoric that this crowd is all too capable of?

Now Lega Nord, a leading partner in Italy's government, is calling for ethnic cleansing of Muslims in Genova:

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Lo ha dichiarato il capodelegazione della Lega Nord al Parlamento europeo, Mario Borghezio, questo pomeriggio nel suo intervento al comizio tenuto a Genova davanti alla Commenda di Pre', per protestare contro il progetto del sindaco Marta Vincenzi di ospitare nell'edificio un centro interreligioso aperto anche ai musulmani. "Ci vuole una bella pulizia etnica anche a Genova" -ha proseguito Borghezio- "e noi la faremo"

Then he leads the party faithful in an oath to
defend against being profaned by Islam:

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L'eurodeputato ha condannato "l'arrogante pretesa sostenuta da politici locali senza vergogna, pronti a cedere a qualunque arrogante profanazione dei nostri luoghi simbolici". Il comizio si e' tenuto alla presenza di alcune decine di militanti e simpatizzanti contestati da alcuni giovani e da alcuni immigrati. Dopo il discorso l'eurodeputato ha ottenuto di entrare con alcuni militanti nella chiesa della Commenda dove ha invitato i presenti a prestare giuramento: "Giuriamo di difendere sempre e comunque con ogni mezzo necessario la Commenda di Genova dalla profanazione dell'Islam".

All this 'political posturing', and throwing their weight around, by the Lega politicians is beginning to send shivers down my spine.

I wonder too, how many older Italians are beginning to feel a sense of 'deja vu'? I seem to remember (from what I've read and been told) that the Italian Fascist ideaology was begun in a similar fashion...Not to mention the National Socialist German Workers’ Party in Germany too!

Exactly Carole. What disturbs me is the dismissive attitude I see some displaying toward Lega Nord/Alleanza Nazionale. The same thing happened in Germany- the "smart set" scoffed at the Nazis as buffoons. They didn't seriously oppose them because they didn't take them seriously. By the time they realized the Nazis presented a threat to all they held dear, it was too late- their power had grown too great. That is why I believe we should keep an eye on what Lega Nord and AN are up to, and oppose them in every way we can.

Carole and Bill,

Your two posts are dead on from what I remember all of my relatives from my parents generation talking about what led up to WWII.

quote:

Originally posted by Gil:
Carole and Bill,

Your two posts are dead on from what I remember all of my relatives from my parents generation talking about what led up to WWII.

The problem is that 'Joe Public' here in Italy think that the current 'alliance' of Berla and Bossi is the ONLY answer to what many saw as the 'Prodi Problems'!

Well they were, in as much as their victory rid the people of the parties from the 'left'. But why can't they realise that their alternative choice is a dreadful political time bomb. In fact many 'outsiders' can see that they are a far bigger and more dangerous problem to Italy's stability.

Now is perhaps one of the first times in my life that I have felt grateful for the instability of the Italian political system. I so hope that one of Berla's 'allies' (most likely to be Bossi) will disagree with him and bring him an his coalition tumbling down - like yesterday!!!

It really can't be soon enough...

I don't really see a chance for change anytime soon.

Proof that Italy doesn't have a monopoly:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/aug/11/olympicsbasketball.olympics20081

quote:

Originally posted by Justin B:
Proof that Italy doesn't have a monopoly:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/aug/11/olympicsbasketball.olympics20081

Perhaps Prince Phillip had briefed them...

I doubt anyone on the board believes racism doesn't exist elsewhere- it certainly exists in the US. What's troubling about the racist undertone of current events here is the offical endorsement of it by a couple of parties in the majority coalition, not only through rhetoric but through legislative and administrative action.