IYO what are the factors that speed/minimise the process from full on the "this is Italy (heavey sarcastic tone) - chuh !!!" stage to the point when your whinges and irritations are on the same level they were when you were home, as in the point was the whinge or irritation not the comparison and there was no big dollop of "this is not of the standard I am accutomed to" or sense of observation as an outsider ?

I suppose many would automatically assign time (how much time is an interesting sub quesion) but it cannot be the sole answer, can it ?
Having gone through this twice from 21-39 without a break I am putting down lack of "expat lifestyle" (ie primarily mixing and living in an expat community), not forcing yourself into friendship where common language is overwelmingly the common/sole bond as opposed to "good fit", and access to media (like SKY) that stops "home" transmogifiying into a paradise it never was.

Any other thoughts ?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ticino,

I think a lot depends on what you are comparing. My OH complains (rightly) that I make an unfair comparison between rural England (gorgeous countryside, fresh air, easy to drive) and city living (traffic, pollution and the latest thing for me to worry about - children getting stuck with used needles at asilo nido ). If I had experience of living in a city in the UK then I probably wouldn't complain so much - but for the moment I feel justified

C in Bo

Used needles were one of the things that pushed me over the edge when we were in Milan. Taking Frankie to the park or even to the supermarket once he decided that he was using his own legs even if that meant lots of falling down had me in a state, Sesto Marelli was far far better than when we lived in Loreto (Sesto commune had set up a needle recycling programe if I remember rightly) but I had this huge paranoia about junkie needles. I was actually comparing the situation to Bangkok and London, but in Bangkok shooting up is rare, it gets smoked, and "my" London was residential and centre back in the early ninties, so yes I think you raise a very good point about comparing apples and oranges.

Here in rural PV I had seen not one, not even in town. Dog poo on the pavement isn't an issue anymore either now we have moved. There seem to be lots of little bags attached to leads and people pick up. Either the mindset here is different to Milan or they went and changed the laws while I wasn't paying attention and being such a small lace it is easier to get caught and fined than in a big city.

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Originally posted by C in Bo:
I think a lot depends on what you are comparing. My OH complains (rightly) that I make an unfair comparison between rural England (gorgeous countryside, fresh air, easy to drive) and city living (traffic, pollution and the latest thing for me to worry about - children getting stuck with used needles at asilo nido ). If I had experience of living in a city in the UK then I probably wouldn't complain so much - but for the moment I feel justified

I think this is right, if you were able to compare Bologna with UK cities, as I can, you would feel lucky to live in Bologna. Living in Florence, I would still like to live in the countryside here, but again that is what I was used to before coming over here. There are pros and cons for both. Now I have convenience over fields and pretty views.

I do have an expat lifestyle here, but it is quite hard not to in Florence and my Italian being limited at the moment I think I would be foolish not to take advantage of it. Also I'm not married to an Italian so I haven't needed to immerse myself fully very quickly. I do have Italian friends, but far more english speaking ones. I actually think I am more sheltered from the attitude you mention because of this - I can dip in and out of "living" in Italy in a way. Does this make sense?

Wow! What a great thread! We are now living in Verona for almost 22 months, and I am having a hard time. My language skills are average...I can carry on a limited conversation, understand well if people speak slowly, and can read some Italian. I always carry an electronic dictionary, the one with the entire Zanichelli dictionary, by Sharp. That said, I have become more, not less, intolerant of the dogs crapping in the middle of the sidewalk and the owners just walk away; the Veronese (I won't paint all Italians with this brush, because I have no way of knowing) concept of personal space as being all the space around them...example, crashing into you as you walk down the sidewalk, without a backwards glance; storekeepers promising and ordering an item that, months later after several phone calls, they finally ... sometimes ... admit they can't get and never could; the interminable approach to problem solving...the air conditioner is acting up again, for the second summer, and our landlord is floating the charming (to him) story again of the little Italian spider who must have crawled up inside the pipes and built a nest. Is it me? Or am I just surrounded by idiots? I'm in a bad space. This morning I was ready to go home to the States. Calmer now but NOT happy.

What has been pushing my "homesick button" (I was here all of last school year, back to NY for 8 months, now here again for nearly 3 months) is the elementary school and how they do things. I keep comparing it to the good school my son went to in NY (though I had my complaints too) and here it just seems to be work, work, work with no flexibility for different abilities, interests, level of Italian, etc. (very few foreigners have passed through the school). I miss the physical education program, the schoolyard playground (here there is none), communication between school and home, the library, the computer classes...I could go on. I also miss the shopping conveniences of my suburban NY lifestyle compared with my rural Italian existence.

We have so much invested in this new house and mostly I'm OK now (got internet, SKYPE phone and internal doors, and school is almost over)so we'll see how the summer goes. Since we haven't sold our home in NY yet, and I'm on leave from my job there, sometimes the temptations are great to return. But I'm MUCH better now than I was a week or two ago when it was up and down and up again all within the space of an hour. I was driving my poor husband crazy!

We know two lifestyles (American and Italian) and when the frustrations in whichever one is current get overwhelming, then the escape, whether actual or in fantasy, is the romanticized version of the other. THere is no paradise. There are negatives and positives everywhere. It's a blessing, and a curse, that we know two worlds.

A good friend of mine who moved from NY to San Diego 6 years ago and STILL has bouts of "homesickness" gave me some advice last week. "Forget about NY. You're not moving back. MAKING FRIENDS is your priority now. There's nothing happening here in USA that you're missing. You weren't that happy here or you wouldn't have packed up everything and left. You think your sister is a pain, your father you only saw once in a while, the job left you frustrated"..etc.

She told me that whenever I thought about moving back I HAD TO think of something else immediately (like any recovering addict when they think of their drug of choice). She was right. I felt better and gave up the fantasizing, at least for now!

Hi Diane...I understand everything you're saying. We, too, left the US because we didn't want to be there. And we read all the books on culture clash, thought we were prepared. Now we know that you can read all the books that have been written but until you experience the reality of living in another country there will be no context for the books. I keep thinking that another place in Italy would be better, and Plan C is to maybe find it and move there. But will it? At least we did not sell our house in NJ. I never thought I would be so disillusioned. I was the one who answered my husband's prescient question 'What if it doesn't work out? Then what?' with, 'We have to make sure that it does work out, it is a state of mind'. I think back to that and just want to cry. Verona is a medium-big city with all the attendant problems, for which the Veronese continually blame all the extracomunitari, the immigrants from Eastern Europe and anywhere south. We don't think rural Italian life is for us either. The one place I seem to resonate with now is the Alto Adige, but my husband says that is way too cold for his year-round cycling goal. I am happiest when I am not in Verona. I don't know what we will have to do to solve this problem. What I have not yet mentioned is the terrible immediate neighbors in our palazzo, who have made our lives hell, despite talking, writing letters, involving the landlord, etc. They are a big part of my feelings. Maybe had we started out our new life in another apartment I would not now be in the place I find myself.

I don't think there is ANY reasonable amount of time to get adjusted. I consider myself somewhat lucky because I moved here right after college and was young enough to pick up the language rather quickly and culturally integrate.
After almost seven years I've found the best answer is to stop putting American or even Western standards and values on Italian culture. Living in Naples has made me an infinately more tolerant person. If I were to criticize every negative aspect of this city I would have to throw myself off of Capo Posilipo (esp. in the past couple weeks where the city has literally become a garbage dump!).
Then next time you feel homesick take a half a day outside of your city to see the countryside or a small village nearby. This has always helped me to put things into perspective and understand why I moved here. Most of the time you just have to seperate yourself from the environment in which your living in.
I personally think that if you move to Italy (or any other country) purely for the scenary,countryside,culture,food ect... you're not going to last long. You can't expect to live your life as a tourist and expect things to be as new and exciting as when you first saw them. If you really want to make it for the long haul you have to start making roots. The only way to do this is to create strong relationships with the Italians themselves and having a firm grasp of the language. If not it's like looking at a nice picture....it's pretty to look at but after awhile you become bored with it and move on.

Thank you for your excellent post. I do love Italy outside the city. After writing my last post, I am reflecting more and more on how the horrible 22 months of being neighbors with this low-life though rich family LOL next door to us has colored my feelings. We are actively working towards finding a new apartment. However, and this is a cautionary tale to others, we brought too much 'stuff', in a misguided effort to make this a familiar place to call home. We are in our 60s and couldn't part with all the evidence of our lives, we aren't 'travel light' people. We have collections and good furniture. Thinking we were moving to the last posto for a long while, we brought everything with us. And, believe me, we downsized in the States...garage sales, house sale, etc. But I couldn't get rid of my books, we had just bought beautiful furniture, the apartment is big (160 m) so we wanted to have an instant home, not just a house. This in retrospect was a huge mistake. Better to have a small apartment with some furniture...ah, but then you run into the rule about bringing your belongings over within 6 months of your arrival or paying huge dogana. The requirement to have a one-yr lease before obtaining a one-yr elective residence visa also worked against us in retrospect...it would have been better to live here for 6 months to a year in a month-to-month rental, and scope it out. But, we had lived here for two one-month periods, and thought we knew what was up. It is so frustrating to recount this. We thought we were doing all the due diligence we possibly could, and making the right choice. And then the neighbors from hell, who have been here 17 years...as renters, also...and think they own the building. The more I write about this, the more my feelings dissipate, actually.

Hi,

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with this low-life though rich family LOL next door to us has colored my feelings.

Sorry Womanofverona, I don't understand. What do you mean by this?

Just curious, just in order to better understand your position.

Anyway, in bocca al lupo
Chia

Diane and womanofverona - can I ask why you moved to Italy in particular?

I guess I agree with Aniboy that you need to make an Italian life for yourself. This doesn't mean that you need to only hang out with Italians but it does mean that you need to try to integrate as much as possible - work with Italians, hang out with them, watch Italian TV etc.

It also helps to have a really good reason for moving here so that during those dark moments you aren't tempted to go back. In my case, I came here for a relationship and going back to NY would (probably) mean the end of the relationship. So that has kept me here even at moments when I missed NY terribly. It also helps that my boyfriend is open to moving to NY or anywhere else in a few years time so I don't feel like I'm stuck here permanently (even if I am!)

But I have seen people who moved to Italy for what I consider to be the wrong reasons (ie they had a nice vacation here!) and when they've been confronted with negative aspects of Italy it was a huge disappointmentto them and they went back to their home countries disillusioned.

To answer the original question - I found that after about 9 months-1 year my culture shock disipated a lot. I still get angry at Italian bureaucracy, corruption, dirty hospitals etc - but on the other hand, so do my Italian friends. But i realized that that's just how it is and I can't change anything. I actually find myself being a bit shocked when I meet foreigners now who expect bureaucratic efficiency, timeliness etc. It seems an alien attitude to me too now.

Aniboy - how is living in Naples right now? I was just reading about the garbage problems - it sounds pretty stinky.

I haven't been able to spend much time on the board lately, but wanted to contribute to this interesting thread, and say that Aniboy and Ramona's comments are really valuable. If you are having difficulty, listen carefully to what they have to say.

I've been here for 4 years now and although I came here with excellent language skills, (and for a great reason: my DH!), I still found it a very difficult adjustment. Cristina has always maintained that the "calendar" for getting over culture shock is 3-7 years and I agree - I myself hit the wall after about 2 years, struggled (with much help from Expatsinitaly) for about another year and a half, and am now finally feeling truly at home here. There are, of course, still moments of exasperation....and I think there always will be. Making "an italian life for yourself" is not easy, and may not necessarily even mean making "italian friends", ar at least not right away.

For me, making an italian life for myself meant forging out into my neighborhood, forming relationships with shopkeepers and businesspeople, becoming a familiar, smiling face to my neighbors. (Even when my smile was not returned - and that took a lot of persistence and patience; we do not live in a friendly city.) Meanwhile I persisted in finding other expats nearby, and am infinitely enriched by the friendships I am forming with them. We do try to focus on the positive things about living here and not have TOO many "***** sessions" about the hard stuff! Another very useful step I took was to become involved as a volunteer at a St. Vincent de Paul shelter. There, I am FINALLY (after 4 YEARS!) forming relationships with italian women - some of the other volunteers. And working at the center gives me an opportunity to assist other foreigners in Italy, "stracomunitari" much more disenfranchised than most of us will ever be, anywhere.
Even if your language skills are not good, you may find that there are volunteer organizations that are grateful for a helping hand. By example many parrocchie accept clothing and furniture donations, which need sorting through - or offer meals for the homeless - there's a lot we can do out there with very limited linguistic ability. For the first time, I feel as if I really am putting down roots in my community. Yes, it has taken a long time

Amazing thread! I can't believe I am just now seeing it.

There is are so many very good points to quote that I almost just quoted the whole thread!
But below are some points that really stood out to me.

I haven't been here quite long yet, and although I for the most feel fine with things, I do admit that some times I have that tug of war pull of confusion and frustration between here in Italia or somewhere else.

I am also looking at a near future of possibly not having any papers to stay (see the mess of my pdis and jure sanguinis applying in the other threads) but yet I am still wanting to stay, for the most part, and as of now. We know things can change at any moment.

Oh wow, at least I don't feel as bad now if I have any of those down times.

At least I have travelled light, a suitcase and bag. And I don't have commitments back in the States.

I have tons of respect for those of you who were so courageous IMHO and picked up moved entire houses and families and whatnot. Wow!

No wonder it would really get to you when you have those down times in Italy - you have some heavy stuff invested. It is not as easy like myself, to just hop a plane back.

You guys really need to read this thread over and over, print it out and paste it around your house or whatever (at least the key points, like the ones I am quoting below)!
Meditate, ask for guidance, take short sanctuary trips away like another poster says, I have been doing this in my short time here and it does help, to get peace, re-charge, etc.

Moreso for the city dwellers, to get out to the country. Very good. Of so many world cities, Italian cities, surprising to me are some of the most chaotic.

The people who are husband-wife, boyfriend-girlfriend, and you get down, does it help at all that you have each other? I am a bit confused with this. Maybe I am thinking of people who came to, took on Italy as a couple, from their homeland. Not the ones who met a local Italian, because I can understand the isolated feelings in that case, because the partner is a local.

Ok, well I am off to quote some great points now.

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We know two lifestyles (American and Italian) and when the frustrations in whichever one is current get overwhelming, then the escape, whether actual or in fantasy, is the romanticized version of the other. THere is no paradise. There are negatives and positives everywhere. It's a blessing, and a curse, that we know two worlds.

So true! This is a classic tug of war!

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A good friend of mine who moved from NY to San Diego 6 years ago and STILL has bouts of "homesickness" gave me some advice last week. "Forget about NY. You're not moving back. MAKING FRIENDS is your priority now. There's nothing happening here in USA that you're missing. You weren't that happy here or you wouldn't have packed up everything and left. You think your sister is a pain, your father you only saw once in a while, the job left you frustrated"..etc.

She told me that whenever I thought about moving back I HAD TO think of something else immediately (like any recovering addict when they think of their drug of choice). She was right. I felt better and gave up the fantasizing, at least for now!

Awesome advice!

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I think a lot depends on what you are comparing. My OH complains (rightly) that I make an unfair comparison between rural England (gorgeous countryside, fresh air, easy to drive) and city living (traffic, pollution and the latest thing for me to worry about - children getting stuck with used needles at asilo nido Eeker ). If I had experience of living in a city in the UK then I probably wouldn't complain so much

Yes, can't forget simply the city-country comparison wherever in the world we go. The no peace vs peace, no space vs space, etc.

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We are now living in Verona for almost 22 months, and I am having a hard time. .....This morning I was ready to go home to the States. Calmer now but NOT happy.

Yikes! I don't feel so bad. Wow almost 2 years here and still having those feelings. I sure wish you well.

But then I read this...

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I don't think there is ANY reasonable amount of time to get adjusted.

Hmm.

And all the meanwhile, to add in stresses like the red tape stuff, citizenship stuff, maybe financial things, etc. Wow, pretty heavy.
I wonder how many of us miss some of the peace, order, structure, space, etc of our homelands.

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I personally think that if you move to Italy (or any other country) purely for the scenary,countryside,culture,food ect... you're not going to last long. You can't expect to live your life as a tourist and expect things to be as new and exciting as when you first saw them. If you really want to make it for the long haul you have to start making roots. The only way to do this is to create strong relationships with the Italians themselves and having a firm grasp of the language. If not it's like looking at a nice picture....it's pretty to look at but after awhile you become bored with it and move on.

Nice point!

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It also helps to have a really good reason for moving here so that during those dark moments you aren't tempted to go back.

Very good point! Like anything in life so you don't give up early.

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So in my closing to this post, of course I agree with all that above and why I quoted it..and for quick reference to help others find it fast....
BUT, I do have to touch on the flipside of things.

Most of this talk is about encouragement in helping to keep the people to remain in Italy. Hang in there, don't quit type of stuff.

I strongly believe we all have our own unique paths. What we are supposed to do in life, we were are supposed to live, and on and on.

Some are meant to live in Iowa their whole lives, other's meant to move to Japan and write a book about whatever, and on and on.
We are driven in life by our passions. But I feel there are times when our passions may not be the right ones. I know it is so hard to know the difference in things.

I won't go on and on about this, but what if some of the people in Italy, who are feeling these sick in the guy type feelings, not at peace, longing to go back home, hearing that voice over and over deep down to go back, what if that is where they are meant to be and by fighting against that, staying in Italy and forcing things, they are walking off their path?

It is just a thought on the flipside of things, that's all. Just because some of us had that passion, dream to live here, doesn't always mean it came from the right source and that we are meant to stay.

I know, it is all hard, confusing, tough at times. Hard to give the definitive answers.

I am thankful for this forum and the great help of e-friends.

Thanks everyone!
And what a great thread to keep alive!

Pleasant day all!
Ciao!

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with this low-life though rich family LOL next door to us has colored my feelings.


Sorry Womanofverona, I don't understand. What do you mean by this?

I mean that though they apparently have a lot of money, they have no upbringing. Not that I think that wealth equals good manners, but I did think that when we signed a contract for this apartment in this beautiful palazzo in one of the oldest buildings in Verona, a palazzo on the Italian historic register, in a very good neighborhood, I thought that we were choosing carefully in order to minimize running into una famiglia maleducata. We were to find out much later that the previous tenants left because of her terrible behavior, but that the previous tenants never told the real estate agent or the owner of the building. Too well brought up, I guess. This has been a gigantic disappointment to us. Maybe I am being too judgemental. Again, I don't equate wealth with manners...just had a hope that we were choosing a good building with good neighbors.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Edi (formerly womanofverona),

But there is a secret to survival you know. Not everyone manages to uncover it and so they will often ‘give up’ and use that return ticket to go back to whence they came.

The secret will take varying amounts of time depending on the individual, but Cristina’s timescale of between 2 and 7 years is pretty damned close.

Many consider that those of us who married into an Italian family ‘had it made’ from the outset – NOT TRUE! Yes it did give many of us a faster insight into what the life here was going to be like. But it was never going to be a 'solve all' situation. Homesickness can hit anyone any time. It is often triggered by the smallest and often least expected event. As recently as last month even I had a few tears of homesickness – and why? Because someone in the family close to me (here) did not tell ME that they feared they had the ‘Big C’….. Suddenly I didn’t want to be here – I wanted to go home..(?). That lasted just long enough for me to shed a few tears – because I’d been left out – and come to terms with ‘why’ they had done that. But in that moment I wanted to be ‘Back in Blighty’ – NOT in Italy.

Now these situations don’t happen very often any more – I guess this must be about the third time since I last moved back here for the second (and final) time in my life. But I am settled and happy here now, and have come to terms with the differences that so many 'incomers' (N.B. I don't say 'Expats'- there IS a difference) find difficult to accept and so ‘give up’, and others who seem to resign and condemn themselves to a life of disillusion and unhappiness.

But I digress – back to “The Secret of Survival” – it’s really quite simple, though may be hard to achieve….

STOP COMPARING EVERYTHING - THAT IS A CERTAIN RECIPE FOR DISASTER!

Comparison of what you ‘do now’ and what you ‘did then’ will lead to despair. Just accept that things are different because this is a different culture.

Continual comparison will breed nothing but dissatisfaction in everything you do! No it’s NOT easy to achieve the situation where you don’t automatically think “Ah but back home we always did…….”, but instead your mind reacts with “Well I never - that’s a different approach to………..”

I promise you – if you can get to that situation you’ll be home and dry. But just because there are one or two seemingly insurmountable problems on the way, doesn’t mean that you will only have constant unhappiness to look forward to.

P.S. learn 'the Gallic Shrug' it works wonders..

I came here for what I consider the right reasons. I am half Italian by descent. My husband and I have made six trips to Italy over the years. We also went to language school in Verona in 2004. We also came here for a month househunting in 2005. I had a lifelong dream of living in Europe, and Italy seemed to be the best match. We read every book we could get our hands on. We are both retired, looking forward to a life of travel and adventure with Verona as a home base. I love Italy, I just hate my situation in this apartment. We are trying to change that.

Thank you for offering understanding. We belong to a cycling club of warm caring people who have made us feel at home. We have been invited into their homes and have invited them into ours. We have a network of friendly faces in our local shops that we repeatedly frequent that know us enough to say hello on the street...the butcher, the casalinga, the fruttavendola, the fiori lady, various shops. I donate clothes when someone lets me know there is a clothes drive going on at a local church. We have tickets to the Filarmonico. We go to all the summer events outside. We have a ready smile for everyone. We take almost every opportunity to do something new. I particularly avoid expats with negative attitudes so that it isn't catching. But lately the situation with the apartment have turned everything else to lead. What was shining gold is now under a shadow. And until this gets resolved, or there is some hope that it will be, the shadow looms large.

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Most of this talk is about encouragement in helping to keep the people to remain in Italy. Hang in there, don't quit type of stuff.

I strongly believe we all have our own unique paths. What we are supposed to do in life, we were are supposed to live, and on and on.

Some are meant to live in Iowa their whole lives, other's meant to move to Japan and write a book about whatever, and on and on.
We are driven in life by our passions. But I feel there are times when our passions may not be the right ones. I know it is so hard to know the difference in things.

I have tears in my eyes at your closing thoughts. Maybe I am one of those persons who came here with a dream, to find the dream was not what I thought. No foul, no fault...just a mistake. I am not there yet, as this would be a huge decision both emotionally and financially to cut our losses and return to the States. I want to succeed at this. I am the type of person who has always said when I get discouraged or something is difficult, 'I will not fail at this'. I've been through a lot of tough things in my life, as has my husband, and we have always been people who persevered and came out whole on the other side. So we don't want to give up five minutes before the miracle.

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