A friend of mine moved from Finland to Italy a while ago, I decided to write for her and for another friend of mine a short introduction on understanding Italy and Italians. Or at least trying to.

I posted the first chapter I wrote, a crash course on Italians and Italy, on my blog. I'd like to get some comments on it from you expats on what it should also include in the very first chapter of a book that introduces to Italy.

What is that you wished someone told you the moment you landed in Italy and you had to find out the hard way?

A smile,

Fabio

PS: Yes... the web site!

http://www.aliquam.org/blog

It's a PDF file linked at the end of the article named "Italians for Foreigners".

quote:

What is that you wished someone told you the moment you landed in Italy and you had to find out the hard way?

You should check out the Stories and Blogs section of this site. That's one of the questions asked in the expat interviews.

Bravissimo Fabio, complimenti!

I am sending the link to some friends and family who struggle to comprehend some of the challenges here (as I did for my first year). I think this may help them, while keeping the humour light.

Keep us updated about future chapters.

Thanks,
Tiffany

Fabio, it's brilliant. Unfortunately, I couldn't say so in the comments because I got a weird WP Hash Check error that I've never seen before.

quote:

Originally posted by Deirdre:
Fabio, it's brilliant.

I really don't think so.
But of course, this is just my opinion.


Chiara Degli Esposti

Chia,

I agree with you. But it's also only my opinion.

I enjoyed reading it because it was funny. I'm hoping no one thinks it is serious.

quote:

It's a PDF file linked at the end of the article named "Italians for Foreigners".

I couldn't find the PDF file???

quote:

Originally posted by Gil:

quote:

It's a PDF file linked at the end of the article named "Italians for Foreigners".

I couldn't find the PDF file???

Click here.

Dora

Thanks Dora, I guess I didn't scroll all the way down to the prior post.

I think it is great. Particularly the first section about a) the family and b) dressing like everyone else. I have first hand knowledge of this and even after 6 years it still drives me nuts that I cannot dress the way I want to (ie slobbily like I do in London) because of what other people might think - as if I give a FF what other people think!! However, it's important to my suocera, who gives my husband hell if I don't conform (classic quote from her: "don't you earn enough to buy her decent clothes?") - so for HIS sake, I conform. Have a whole wardrobe of smart stuff that I buy in the London sales and ship down to Lecce.

Chia ... this website is called Expat Talk. It's aimed at (I guess) non-Italians living or wanting to live in Italy. Therefore it's obvious that we non-Italians will see our experiences in Italy from our point of view and equally obvious that some Italians on this board may not understand our viewpoint. So I really don't understand why you have to criticise us so much any time we say what we think - surely this website is the one place where we are able to say this stuff and know that our experiences will be understood by fellow souls?

Also ... may not be apparent to those who are not mother-tongue English, but I also think it was written with a tongue in cheek (does this saying exist in Italian?) which again may not have come across to everyone.

Bravo Fabio - very amusing and - to my eyes at least - very apt.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: MrsCalabrese,

Mrs. Calabrese.

I don't want to sound harsh, accept my apologies in advance if I do. But even if this board is called expats in Italy, I have the little presumption of adding a little, very very little perspective to it.
So since we live in a Democracy, and In Italy we are all entitled to have and express personal opinions, and unless I get a waning from the administrator and founder of this site (Cristina) or some of the moderators, I will be saying whatever I think must be said, of course, always in a polite way.
And if I think that what written (by an Italian who should know better IMO, if I understand well, -and that's what irks me on the most-) about Italy and Italians is a bunch of...exaggerations to be polite, I will say it.
Nothing personal about you mrs Calabrese.
Feel free to skip my messages, if they really are so difficult to partake for you. I say it in all honesty and politeness.

Chia

p.s. I can suggest many good (modern and old) books about Italy as seen by Italians (starting from Machiavelli and Petrarca and ending to Severgnini, passing through Manzoni, Massimo d'Azeglio, Prezzolini, Montanelli,Riccardo Bacchelli, Curzio Malaparte, Luigi Barzini, Pier Paolo Pasolini and even yes, Ennio Flaiano) if someone is interested. Email me privately if you want.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Chia of Bologna,

Haven't we already had this conversation about 10 times, Chia? This is a board for expats who live in italy- we have freedom of speech too - and if we have observations about Italy which you don't happen to like this is not a reason to attack us.

Same goes for Fabio and his very funny site - good for you!

Sure Ramona,

just offering my opinion, no? who's attacking who?
The sun is bright, the Castello di Serravalle hills are green, all the cherry trees are in full bloom, and life is good. Only, I like telling my opinions...and they are more than ten.

Chia

quote:

Originally posted by Ramona:
Haven't we already had this conversation about 10 times, Chia? This is a board for expats who live in italy- we have freedom of speech too - and if we have observations about Italy which you don't happen to like this is not a reason to attack us.

Same goes for Fabio and his very funny site - good for you!

Does this mean that Chia, me, Alice and all the other italians on this board are not allowed to express their opinion or talk freely other than to help when requested? If this is the case (and I understand it is) I won't post anymore, but I won't even answer to the questions or try to help when requested, if my mouth must be zipped then I zip it, and for good.

quote:

Originally posted by Dora:

quote:

Originally posted by Ramona:
Haven't we already had this conversation about 10 times, Chia? This is a board for expats who live in italy- we have freedom of speech too - and if we have observations about Italy which you don't happen to like this is not a reason to attack us.

Same goes for Fabio and his very funny site - good for you!

Does this mean that Chia, me, Alice and all the other italians on this board are not allowed to express their opinion or talk freely other than to help when requested? If this is the case (and I understand it is) I won't post anymore, but I won't even answer to the questions or try to help when requested, if my mouth must be zipped then I zip it, and for good.

I don't think Ramona's post should be interpreted in that way, after all she wrote "we have freedom of speech too," the implication being that everyone has got it.

The problem is that whenever someone writes something that isn't let's say "politically correct" about Italy, he or she gets criticized, and in a way that suggests that the person doing the criticizing has no respect for the other person's right to express his/her opinion. The point is that EVERYONE should get to express an opinion here, whether positive or negative. It's all about tolerance.

Not at all. However, every time that an Italian (and I am not directing this at Dora) criticises me or someone else for daring to post our thoughts or experiences on life in Italy, it makes me less likely to post again. In fact, I very rarely do unless something really spurs me on to do so, like this particular thread. So I post, and lo and behold, the criticism follows. Point proved and this is a shame, because this site is for expats. It doesn't mean that Italians cannot post, but if every time an expat posts and an Italian comes back at them to prove them wrong or to lament our views, it makes it less likely that the people for whom this website is intended, people like me, bother to post if all they get is hassle afterwards, like has happened with this particular post.

So happens that I am in a confident mood today hence am putting my head above the parapet, but most days I actively stop myself from posting my real views here because of worrying about reactions from the non-expats and that surely should not be right.

Noooo! Dora, you and Silvia and Chia (and any other Italians on the board) need to post more, not less.

Ha ha, not only was the article a scream, but everything rings a bell, believe me--the eternal brown-nosing (by many)and complicated systems of Favors and alliances still get to me (and I think the farther south you go, the more people keep track of every little IOU).
I don't think Severgnini (or the buon'anima di Barzini) would disagree with a thing.
The article wasn't offensive, just tells it like it is. Life is politics...

Alison

quote:

Originally posted by Professoressa:

quote:

Originally posted by Dora:

quote:

Originally posted by Ramona:
Haven't we already had this conversation about 10 times, Chia? This is a board for expats who live in italy- we have freedom of speech too - and if we have observations about Italy which you don't happen to like this is not a reason to attack us.

Same goes for Fabio and his very funny site - good for you!

Does this mean that Chia, me, Alice and all the other italians on this board are not allowed to express their opinion or talk freely other than to help when requested? If this is the case (and I understand it is) I won't post anymore, but I won't even answer to the questions or try to help when requested, if my mouth must be zipped then I zip it, and for good.

I don't think Ramona's post should be interpreted in that way, after all she wrote "we have freedom of speech too," the implication being that everyone has got it.

The problem is that whenever someone writes something that isn't let's say "politically correct" about Italy, he or she gets criticized, and in a way that suggests that the person doing the criticizing has no respect for the other person's right to express his/her opinion. The point is that EVERYONE should get to express an opinion here, whether positive or negative. It's all about tolerance.

Professoressa - exactly - thanks for making my point clear. I didn't mean that anyone should stop posting. I was just taking Chia's point that here in Italy we have freedom to speech and applying it also to those of us who occasionally express "non politically correct" viewpoints about Italy and inevitably get shot down by certain other people. I think that we ALSO should be able to express our views without being attacked or condemned. Afterall, as others have said, this is a board called "Expats in Italy" - why can't us expats express views which might be unpopular with native Italians. For many of us, this is the only place where we can express these views for fear of offending Italian spouses, family members, friends and workmates.

Why exactly should Fabio, as an Italian, "know better" than to write what he writes on his blog? Are Italians only allowed to think or say certain things about their native country? I should hope not!

Without regard to this specific thread or any individual poster on it, I do think there's sometimes a tendency by some folks here (both Italian and expat) to respond very defensively to any criticism of Italy. Sort of an my-country-love-it-or-leave-it attitude, which I find unpleasant when espoused by anyone - Italian, American, or anyone else.

It's only natural that those of us who are not Italian or haven't been here for decades will find differences between Italy and our home countries which confuse, aggravate, or outright anger us and this board is a great place to air these issues and to have open discussion of them. When the Italians on the board reply to these criticisms constructively - that is to say with respect and perhaps with an explanation of why it's different (which DOES happen most of the time), it's great and really contributes to the discussion. When the response is simply to defend Italian ways blindly, it doesn't help.

It's all well and good to be proud of your country and to take its side in an argument, but it's simplistic to think that Italy (or the US or anywhere else) is perfect and shouldn't be criticized. Most of us are here or hoping to be here because we love (or at least like) Italy and find things to appreciate about it. But it's also only fair to expect us to find things we don't like so much.

As to the subject of this thread, I found his chapter to be an excellent and funny approach to some of these differences. Sure it's exaggerated and stereotyped, but there's some serious truth to just about every point he makes. Does that make Italy bad or wrong or backward? No, just different - and even an exaggerated explanation is better than none.

Dora, keepa u mouth shut!!

quote:

Originally posted by Gil:
Dora, keepa u mouth shut!!

YEA!