I've written about this several times on my site, but I'm getting angrier and angrier.

My daughter has been telling me since elementary school about widespread cheating among her classmates (while she comes by her failing grades honestly). My husband has to take extraordinary measures to try to stop cheating in the university exams he administers; apparently many profs just don't bother.

High school teachers seem oblivious to the scale of cheating going on under their noses. The culture seems to assume that this is how you pass through a difficult school system and hence get ahead in life. Then Italians sniff "Our school system is so much better than the US one."

Who gets hurt? you may wonder. Well, my daughter for one. For example, this year she has a young, massively incompetent math teacher who needs to understand that she is not getting through to anyone in the class, and that giving a 90 minute test in a 40 minute period is not going to make anyone successful. But when half the class manages to pass by cheating, the teacher has no clue as to her own incompetence. Leaving the few honest kids to be told that they're just not working hard enough!

But of course Ross won't rat on her classmates because that would make her the b***h* of the group.

Throughout my school career it was drilled into me that cheating and plagiarism are very serious academic crimes. As far as I can tell, it's rarely been mentioned to Ross in any of her schools, and, in her third year of high school, she has yet to be taught how to write a proper paper with indexed citations.

Anybody have any suggestions for how we parents can "rat on" the cheating classmates without getting our daughter in trouble with them? She has enough trouble in school without having to suffer for her own honesty.

The effects of the lax attitude towards cheating have further consequences in society at large (e.g. an ex prime minister under indictment for tax evasion, fraud, etc.). On the train recently I overheard a young woman talking about her brother, doing some kind of medical qualification:" He never opens a book, he says he can just copy from others during the exams." I feel really good at the idea of this guy someday practicing medicine on me...

How to Fight College Cheating

Doesn't really help but shows the modern world.

That is so depressing. Kind of makes me want to take any potential kids away from Italy before they get to high school.

Not sure what to advise Deirdre - that must be so frustrating. Has it occurred to you that maybe some parents even encourage their kids to cheat?

I know it would be hard to back up, and may not be taken as seriously as if you (or Ross) went and talked to the teacher yourselves, but what about writing an anonymous letter to the school/teacher. State that you are a concerned parent who has been informed by their child of all the cheating going on, but for reasons of protecting your child from being the tatle-tell you're remaining anonymous. I wouldnt name the cheaters outright, but perhaps list specific tests and/or incidents where mass cheating occoured, and say that you expect the problem to be addressed. If nothing happens continue to write letters.

Of course this may be a very non-italian thing to do and may give it away that you're the one doing it If I had kids though and the problem was this wide spread, I'd start somewhere like this and see if any improvement can be made.

That said, I remember various times during highschool german that we copied off of each other (we really took advantage of our teacher being legally blind!) - But we still learned and a bad teacher wasnt the reason we did it. Having a calculus test and a german test on the same day was! Seriously though, I think it's something that happens everywhere and will continue to happen. But the extent to which it seems to happen at Ross's school (and probably most of Italy from the sound of it) is too much. Our cheating never effected the grades of others as we didnt have a curve, and it certainally didnt make the teacher think he was doing a better job than he was, because in all honesty he was doing a great job.

Lori

Deirdre,
I'm sorry to hear that is happening to your daughter. I, myself, have seen it with my own eyes. In fact, I'm preparing a group of high school students for the First Certificate in March, and I just had a student ask me with a straight face if it will be possible to cheat or if 'the English' (the examiners) are stricter than his Italian teachers. I obviously told him he should absolutely under no circumstances try to cheat during the test.

I think you could extend this dilemma to a lot of other situations in Italy ('Should I run that red light? Everone else does...', 'Why should I pay all those taxes? Everyone else cheats..'), and my strategy has been to comport myself in what I believe to be the 'right way' even when nobody else is. Sadly, this has often been to my detriment and I've watched many a 'furbo' get ahead of me. But I have to believe that in the long run, this is the best course of action. Karma's a b*t*h, they say!

As for your daughter, I'm not sure what I'd do. So many times reporting things here gets you nowhere. The letter idea is good but if the teachers are apathetic about the actual cheating going on in front of their faces, is a letter really going to make them sit up and take notice? Are there individual parent-teacher conferences? I might make an appointment with various teachers and ask their advice as a worried mother (worried in general - you don't need to get into specifics) who sees other students seemingly getting ahead by cheating. The fear is that this could make you look like the foreign busybody bacchettona, but what else can you do? I try to approach every situation here with an honesty that is startling to many but so refreshing to others that I end up getting through. I think when you get into underhanded, roundabout or secretive ways to try to achieve your goal, then you've lowered yourself down to the level of exactly what you are trying to combat.
Michelle

quote:

Originally posted by Ramona:
Has it occurred to you that maybe some parents even encourage their kids to cheat?

I know it for a fact, which only adds to my fury.

While it's possible to cheat in the written tests it's impossible in the oral ones. In Italy we have oral and written tests and the students are asked questions during the class. The teacher (unless is completely dumb) always knows who is good and who cheats. They will take that into account when they write the final report.


Dora

Dora, while cheating on oral tests is harder, I remember a bunch of my schoolmates also trying to do it. They would expect the other students to provide suggestions and hints, or write some answers on their hands or wrists. They did not succeed, but they tried all the same.
The sad truth is that no matter how much repression is performed by the teachers, the teachin habit will only stop in the very moment that kids will learn that tests are there for a reason, and that they are useful for them too. I think that also the success of tutoring places like CEPU (occasionally they have been investigated by the police because some teachers would act as intermediators between the students and some university teachers that would accept money for high marks). Also, degrees in itlay are known as "paper scraps". Many of the students don't study for elarning, they do it to get a "paper scrap" to allow them into a profession. Obviously enough, this is not true for 100% of the students (and teachers). There are many students that don't usually cheat, many teachers who pay close attention to the cheating problem, and many parents who don't encourage their children to cheat or simply encourage them to learn isntead of just getting marks. But there is a lack of ethics in these fields.

When I was an exchange student at a large American state university they had an "honours system" for exams. It was pretty shocking for some of the foreign students - but it seemed to work very well.

Basically, exams were unsupervised. So the lecturer just came in and gave us the exams and then left. He would then come back at the end of the exam to collect the papers.

However, all of the students had to sign a paper saying that they would not cheat and if they were caught cheating they would be expelled immediately. We also had to promise (upon penalty of expulsion) to report anyone who we saw cheat.

Anyway - I did several of these exams and did not observe or hear about a single person cheating.

When I was at uni here I missed a few lessons of one course. When I went to the next lesson I saw there was a written test. I panicked and told the prof that I didn’t feel prepared like I usually would be for a uni test. The prof said ok and later we arranged that I’d give an essay instead. Anyway, I hung about before leaving that day and I saw that all the class were talking and discussing answers throughout! I kicked myself as I’m sure I could have got a decent mark that way instead I had to start reading doorstop books for an essay.

To the OP, unfortunately I’m not sure what you can do to change this situation. Best of luck.

quote:

Originally posted by Ramona:
We also had to promise (upon penalty of expulsion) to report anyone who we saw cheat.

Sorry, I can swear not to cheat, which I never do. but I will not swear to report other people cheating. It's a matter of honour: I am not an "infame", I do not report these things. I can report an homicide or rape, or something like that, but I will not report anything less.

On the other hand, he who cheats would cheat on swearing.

Actually, AliceTwain - the weird thing was that cheating was almost unheard of at this university. Apparently it went way down after they brought in this "honour system". I guess deep down people really want to do the right thing - but if there are too many petty rules constraining them they see it as a challenge to overcome those rules. Of course there were rules re cheating at this univeristy which is that there were no second chances. If it could be proved that you cheated, you were out - no questions asked.

Hmmm - maybe it wouldn't work in Italy but it seemed to work in the US.

In Australia also we have a big taboo against "dobbing in a mate" which probably dates back to the convict past. I was never in a situation (thank goodness!) where I would have had to dob someone in for cheating though.

quote:

Originally posted by Ramona:
When I was an exchange student at a large American state university they had an "honours system" for exams. It was pretty shocking for some of the foreign students - but it seemed to work very well.

Basically, exams were unsupervised. So the lecturer just came in and gave us the exams and then left. He would then come back at the end of the exam to collect the papers.

However, all of the students had to sign a paper saying that they would not cheat and if they were caught cheating they would be expelled immediately. We also had to promise (upon penalty of expulsion) to report anyone who we saw cheat.

Anyway - I did several of these exams and did not observe or hear about a single person cheating.

I went to a college with a fairly developed honor code and I loved it. We had unproctored exams and were required to write "I promise not to give or receive aid on this exam." I always assumed that it was successful, because I never witnessed any cheating and in four years there, I only heard one story about it. (The cheater in that story was turned in by various classmates.) I loved the code because I felt that it created an environment of trust and respect that fostered learning.

When I began teaching, I remember how hard it was initially to sit in the room while my students took exams. I was worried that if I looked at any of them too much, they'd think I was suspicious of them and they'd be insulted.

Honestly though, I had fewer problems with cheating on exams than with plagiarism, which was RAMPANT at most of the schools where I taught.

A funny thing about the cheating here in Italy, when my husband and I were cleaning out some old stuff from our house I found a box filled with little folded up strips of paper that were covered with writing. They looked like essays but they were so tiny I couldn't figure out what they were, so I showed them to my husband and he said that they were responses to exam questions. I said something like, wow, they let you prepare an answer ahead of time and bring it with you? When he told me that they weren't actually permitted, I asked him why they were just in this box and not hidden, because his parents were teachers and I figured they'd be pretty cross if they knew. He told me that some of them belonged to his parents!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: pear-shaped,

I think cheating in highschool though happens a lot more than at uni. Atleast in the classes I took. We didnt have an honor code at Oregon State, but I never saw anyone cheat in any of my classes (nor did I do it at uni).

Lori

It's a universal problem so I wouldn't take my kids out of Italy over it. I'm not sure how most of a class can cheat on a math exam. Somebody has to have the correct answers. Are they all looking at the test of the one nerd in the class who actually knows the stuff, or are they helping each other figure out the answers.

There was a case in the US a couple of years or so ago where a group of parents tried to get a teacher fired because she failed their students who had cheated on a writing assignment, basically copying text straight off the internet.

It's too bad when honest kids get penalized, and now days there is so much pressure to excell in order to get ahead that many feel they just can't succeed if they don't have some kind of edge. In the case mentioned here, I think the parent should if possible set up a private meeting with the teacher and discuss the problem. If the teacher has any brain at all he will do somehting about it and not expose the one child. At anyrate the child can say it was her parents idea not hers. She can just say her mom is a bit wacko, as all teens know this to be true anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by jhelm:
I'm not sure how most of a class can cheat on a math exam. Somebody has to have the correct answers. Are they all looking at the test of the one nerd in the class who actually knows the stuff, or are they helping each other figure out the answers.

I remeber one case in high school. I was the English nerd there, and in one case I was requested so many helps (I did not ask for help in any occasion, but did not refuse to give mine) that I did not have time to do my own exercises. After about half of the required time was passed, I told everyone to stop bugging me because I would not return a white sheet just because I used up all of my time helping the others. They were crossed.

Unfortunately, I think cheating is ingrained here. I went to an Italian high school in Florence in the early 70's and everyone cheated. I used to meet friends from other classes in the bathroom to give them answers to their English tests. Many of those "kids" now teach. I am not sure that approaching the teacher would help, and much as I hate to admit it, it might actually hurt.
I also taught in Pisa and got so angry at the cheating that I made several different exams, so no one sitting near another person had the same version.
When my kids were in school here I told them they should not cheat, it was only hurting them because they were not learning. Did they listen? My son did, he hated the cheating, but he did not do particularly well in school. I am not sure that my daughter did in high school, but I don't think she has had the opportunity to cheat in college.
Good luck, it is quite a dilemma, and frankly from a parent's standpoint I don't know what the soluton is.

Are you all really saying that cheating doesn't exist in American schools?!

Gosh, I remember my school days... we were so inventive, writing encrypted info on rubbers, writing tiny notes that we hid underneath our wrist watches (couldn't write in our palms because the teachers might check), programming the calculator... The funny thing about this is that just because we went through all this trouble, those facts we worried about remembering and thus wrote down are the things we still remember (1789, French revolution ) after all else has gone forgotten.

quote:

Originally posted by Annika:
writing encrypted info on rubbers, .

Sorry

Actually, writing is a very good way to memorize hard-to-learn data. Still, personally I would write large schematics and factsheets that I added to my notes and books as a way to remeber. Half an hour of that to me equalled to one hour of trying to memorize, so that I could spend half as long studying; yet my schoolmates thought that I was a "secchiona" (a person that spends all of her time studying) because I did that. Another trick of mine was to pay attention in class: since I stioll had to sit through the lesson, better make good use of that time and have more spare time in the afternoon!

Pk, at a certain point my history (I think) teacher did a sort of test; we had a list of questions, let's say five, and an hour to write short essays (about half a page) to answer those questions. We could use our books and she was to check everything in a very precise way. Those of uss that usually diid good and did not cheat could quickly locate the relevant parts and verify the data, those that had little idea of what the questions were (they weren't particulary easy) did very badly, answering only 2-3 of the questions and their replies were mostly copied fron the books, so that they still received bad marks (like they usually did...).

Nick: quite common here too.

By the way, former Prime Minister Berlusconi is said to have earned his first money by selling homeworks and tests to his schoolmates.

I wish I could say that this problem does not exist in the U.S., but unfortunately, it does. Plagiarism is a major concern, and the internet offers many ways for students to steal material, including customized essays that can be purchased for a fee. (I once told a student that I hoped he did not pay for the essay he submitted, because it was worthless.)

Perhaps the difference is that here (at least at my school) cheating is taken very seriously. We have a written "cheating" policy that is given to students, teachers and parents, which specifies the consequences should students fail to comply.

Last year, I dismissed two students from the National Honor Society for cheating. This year, a student in my "honors" level class failed the cycle for plagiarizing a paper (almost verbatim from an internet source).

There is a great deal of pressure on students to perform well academically, and many are tempted to take short cuts. In fact, I've noticed that the problem is more common among students competing for admission to selective colleges.

At the same time, the "honor system" policies at the college level seem to work well. Students schedule their own exams and are honor bound not to share any information about their content. In fact, my daughter told me that they were not even permitted to indicate whether a test was "easy" or "difficult."

In order for such a system to work, students much agree, not only to comply with the policy, but also to report those who do not. This works better at the university level, than in high school where peer pressure is sometimes overwhelming.

Interesting how many here are almost proud of having cheated their way through school. Do you have these same standards in business and personal lives?

Hi!

Grande Annika!

Sorry Michelle et al not particularly loving my style of putting things in perspective when people just take one default and make it a single unique and totally disconnected from other realities flaw of our "culture".
Ok disclaimer: am I defensive? Ok go for it. Enough is enough.
I don't want to offend anyone but this thread really irked my nerves, sorry.
The funny thing is that when Nick tried, as I sometimes (when I bother) do, to put things in perspective, with quoting an article in English on cheating, many people totally just ignored it and just went on with the consolatory idea that cheating -or watever flaw for that matter- is "so widespread" "a matter of degree and culture" in Italy. I have an interesting theory on this: pointing out the "flaws" of our "culture" in "culture shock", telling it's "a culture aspect" " a matter of degree" is just so consolatory and soothing for a thousand of reasons. Those reasons I will not expose here out of respect and (even if you couldn't believe it) understanding of people coming here for N reasons among which there is no particular interest on Italy itself.
All this said, I again apologize for my tone which may seem a bit harsh, but really, people.

Just out of curiosity, I googled "cheating - school".

Something like 1.500.000 documents in english were listed. So as we say here, delle due l'una:

1) there is a large interest on cheating in Italy by many many english speaking journalists, teachers watever around the world, so that 1.500.000 documents on the subject were written.

2) cheating in school is a widespread attitude, and then saying that in Italy it is wild after having realized it is a widespread attitude just makes people feel better (I mean BETTER IN ANY SENSE). So I am understanding.

This does not justify cheating. Yes, I believe cheating is not good, even if I am Italian, to your grand surprise. There are good willing and average cultured people (me included)that in Italy went on without cheating or knowing anyone. Ok exceptions do exist. See? I'm saying this before you say it. I repeat your thought before you think it:exceptions DO EXIST in this land of corruption where teachers in school teach people to cheat or just tolerate it (so much for my mother and her 40 years of teaching).

Really people, I'm off to bed.

Chia

PS:

YES always putting things in perspective between Italy and other Countries I know first and second hand is so consolatory for me, too.
In Italy we do need consolation. But I'm realistic and fair enough above all with myself to admit it.

Chia