quote:

Originally posted by Bill 2:
Interesting how many here are almost proud of having cheated their way through school. Do you have these same standards in business and personal lives?

No, of course not. But at 16 I already knew that I wouldn't make a living out of knowing the exact dates of the French revolution, so my level of motivation was .... well, I had none. At all. It's not like I needed to cheat, because I could easily have learned everything that was needed by simply reading the books (which I preferred not to, in favor of reading fiction).

It became a game in our class; who could come up with the smartest and most inventive way to cheat on a test. We didn't give each other the answers, but we wrote down the answers and brought cheat notes. Is this right? Morally defendable? No. But I honestly can't see in what way it has damaged me or my professional life today.

Call me old fashion but since when is being asked to sign a contract honor?

Chia what I found the worst was some of the other comments in the intial post. With the US problems with mass tax evasion. Politicians getting arrested it seems daily. Trying to tar Italy is funny to me.

I also found it funny because the last few weeks cheating in the North America [not just the US] has been in the news here.

Air Force Academy

Thank you, Nick.
I don't think the pavlovian reflex I do believe exists about Italy here is all that American Only, though.
Suffice to say I love the USA with all its flaws. and I never ever dared to put myself in a position to smash something American just because I believed the same thing was better in Italy.
Sometimes because I was just realistic and coming from a culture which is 3000 years old, which learnt to listen and write down things. So actually I saw there were many things better in the USA. That's what we are best known for here in Italy: say other Countries are better, and learn (in our crooked way, but at least we listen before we teach).
Sometimes I was plain homesick about the many reasons I am in love with Italy and the Italian way and just licked my own wounds in silence without bugging the USA's flaws when I was FOR WORK and I stress FOR WORK (ok I've been there out of love for the USA too! )in the USA.
I do not think that saying that in the USA carry a gun is " widespread, or cultural and a matter of degree" is playing fair with the USA.
But of course that's an old, corrupted, been-there-done-that "Etruscan" speaking.

Bacio
Chia

quote:

Originally posted by Annika:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill 2:
Interesting how many here are almost proud of having cheated their way through school. Do you have these same standards in business and personal lives?

No, of course not. But at 16 I already knew that I wouldn't make a living out of knowing the exact dates of the French revolution, so my level of motivation was .... well, I had none. At all. It's not like I needed to cheat, because I could easily have learned everything that was needed by simply reading the books (which I preferred not to, in favor of reading fiction).

Sorry, Annika, but I must respectfully disagree. You DID need to cheat. Had you not cheated, you would have failed that test on the French Revolution. You made a decision not to study, which you had every right to do. But instead of taking the grade you deserved as a consequence of this decision, you decided to cheat, and received a grade you did not earn.

It is always morally wrong to cheat, whether we cheat on a test because we don't feel the material we are tested on has any use in our lives or whether we cheat on our taxes because we believe the tax code is unfair. We can rationalize our actions to justify our motives, but the bottom line is "cheating is cheating."

Nick, I agree that signing a contract is not in and of itself "honor." It's adhering to that contract that is honorable. Schools that ask students to sign an "honor code" contract are simply reminding those students of their obligation to maintain academic integrity. It is then up to the student to adhere to those terms.

Chia, the problem exists everywhere, not only in Italy.

Emily it would be an insult to my honor to ask me to sign such a contract. What's the implication? That without the contract I'd do the wrong thing? That the only thing holding me to the right thing is the piece of paper?



Dueling offense I think.

I guess all message boards are like this, but having observed this one for just a few months I find it amazing the way these threads can devolve into anger-fests that have nothing to do with the original poster's concern. I mean, it's a site for people trying to navigate the cultural differences they encounter living in a new country, yet people get skewered for even mentioning that there might be cultural differences. Any intelligent person knows there are exceptions to every generalization, but you don't have to deny the other people's reality to make that point.

As long as "navigating cultural (cultural? Excuse me?) differences" is not becoming insulting though denying MY reality.

Sorry for my "Rage & flames" (and highly politically uncorrect and rude intervention)over a "Poster's concern" (oh dear!). In all the honesty, it seemed to me a little more than a concern. And per finire...sorry but even hearing it's a "matter of exception to a rule" here I find it insulting. Ah now I recall, it must be a matter of degree...that's the difference between an insult and a concern...the degree of a phenomenon...the difference between culture and exception...But anyway. Maybe I just only "percieved the first post as insulting" as I once was told, so that surely must be my problem.
Chia

I still disagree, Nick, but please put down your epee. I don't believe that any university seriously thinks that having students sign a contract enforces an honor code; nor do I think they mean to imply that their students would not behave honorably without such a contract.

But in a legal sense, the contract is a statement of expectations and also a statement of consequences. No student who signs such a contact, can claim after a cheating incident that he did not know he would be dismissed from the university for an infraction of the rules.

My daughter spent her first year of post high school study at a college that has a long-established honor code. Incoming students were made aware of the expectations of the college but were not asked to sign a contract. My daughter transfered to another university after her first year, but in that year, she reports that the students respected the honor code and diligently enforced it among themselves. I guess this proves your point that a contract is not always necessary. What IS always necessary is a clear statement of expectations.

And to return to the original post--In my experience, students are well aware that many of their fellow students cheat their way through school. It is often difficult to accept that the valedictorian did not earn that honor through hard work, but cheated his way to the top. I try to make my students understand that they cannot worry about what other people do; they can only be responsible for their own actions. If they behave honorably, ultimately they will be rewarded. Then, I cross my fingers and hope it's true.

quote:

Originally posted by Chia of Bologna:
As long as "navigating cultural (cultural? Excuse me?) differences" is not becoming insulting though denying MY reality.

So, what's your point? That there are no cultures? That there are no differences? I'm not really getting what you're insulted about. Somebody said there was widespread cheating in their daughter's class, and other people observed that they had encountered the same thing. Some of them noted that cheating in school is treated as a much more serious offense in the U.S. than it is in Italy. Do you think they're wrong? Or are you just angry that they said it?

Buona notte.
Chia

I think the point here is that Deidre wrote in saying she had a specific problem and asking for advice. Just as if an Italian mother living in the U.S. wrote to a message board asking about concerns she had about shootings in American schools (a true problem in the U.S. that - so far - does not exist in Italy), the point would be to respond to her concerns and not to attack her by Googling all potential problems one could find in Italian schools. Cheating is a problem in Italian schools, punto e basta. Nobody is saying it never happens in American schools but we have established that an 'honor code' does exist to some extent and many people follow it. Whether it is good, bad or indifferent is not the point. What happens in America (or anywhere else) is not the point. The point is whether any of this has been helpful to Deidre, and I'm not sure if it has.
Michelle

quote:

Originally posted by Emily:
I still disagree, Nick, but please put down your epee. I don't believe that any university seriously thinks that having students sign a contract enforces an honor code; nor do I think they mean to imply that their students would not behave honorably without such a contract.

Lets change it for a moment.

Imagine going to the mall. At the door you find a guard who hands you a piece of paper.

" I, FILL IN YOUR NAME HERE, promise to not shop lift. If I shop lift I will go straight to jail"

Nobody would consider that a honor system. Most people would be offended by just being handed the form.

quote:

Originally posted by mschoen:
I think the point here is that Deidre wrote in saying she had a specific problem and asking for advice.

She then went on to say

quote:

The effects of the lax attitude towards cheating have further consequences in society at large (e.g. an ex prime minister under indictment for tax evasion, fraud, etc.)

Implying that all Italians are crooks. That the "tough" attitude on cheating in the US has led to less crime.

Hey maybe all Italians really are members of the Sopranos. It wouldn't be the first time I've heard it.

This thread should be renamed Tortured Logic.

I'm sorry to say it but I see that many of the 'expats' defending this type of behavior don't actually live here. Are those of us 'on the ground' here who deal with this kind of stuff every day that is not normal for us (sorry, never cheated in school and had it drilled into my head that it was wrong, wrong, wrong) not allowed to be annoyed with it? I guess based on Chia's logic, for everything I find 'shocking' or 'bad' or 'different,' here I need to counteract the feeling with some negative thought about my home country. I'm sure that will really help me next time someone goes flying through a red light and blindsides me. Anyway, among the others actually living here, does anyone have advice for Deidre?
Michelle

Hi, last thoughts before really going to bed.

1) Maybe I'm tortured too, but I do find logic in what Nick said.

2) Michelle, did I say I defend cheating? I suppose this is another way of confirming what I thought about that pavlovian reflex I spoke of a while ago. I feel offended on a post so as Italian I MUST defend cheating, a perfect example of sillogism. Cheating = Italian Offended = Italian so an offended people when Italian MUST defend cheating.

3) I, for one, for any bad or shocking attitude I found in the USA (and they burn the red light too, sorry, that's MY pavlovian reflex but as I stated at least I recognize it)I never thought about something bad in my own Country (and God knows there is!), I admit it. I just said TO MYSELF how bad. Maybe I can do something, maybe not. But I've never gone either to some Italyexpats site stating:

"How do I prevent my daughter to buy a gun when all the people buy guns here and bring it to the school and the teachers enforce or just shrug at the attitude?" Would have I been a little (I say a little) far from the reality? Ok this is a two way road but my reality is not yours. And it's ok for me to stop here. But then the statement goes on:
"Oh I suppose there must be something wrong in the US society as a whole with such violence going on among teens!"
No, no way, I'm not this presumptuous sorry. I am not going around telling (even out of concern) that there must be something wicked in the US society as a whole (or for that matter I could go on and on with examples on any Country in the world) because there is a high percentage of teens carrying guns at school.

Sorry Nick this is not even prejudice. This is not Soprano. Primina is right, that's too simple.
This is worse. This is FAR worse. And sorry, this is not even us vs they, this is not, Michelle, justifying in finding flaws everywhere. This is presumptuous full stop.
And if you don't understand here we are beyond, a lot beyond prejudice, I am not the one able to explain why.

3) Being concerned about something of a different Country does not justify offending (even without willing, let's give, as always, the benefit of the doubt) the people that might cross your post.

4) and oh, another thing that would never cross my mind is deciding what can be useful or not on a thread's forum. But ok that's me. I HAPPEN TO LIVE IN ITALY. Actually I am a native. And This thread, for what I am concerned, can be very useful for the people willing to listen. But one must be willing. Just a different opinion. Maybe, as Italian, I am too warped in my machiavellismi and it's my fault if you don't follow me anymore

So on to useful suggestions about how teaching those bad Italians how to stop cheating at school, or how not to cross with the red, or how to pay taxes, or how to avoid conoscenze for work. Assuming this was the point.

Buona notte, davvero. Mi avete esaurita, e domani debbo

a)lavorare

b) poi studiare perché come tanti della mia generazione, sono a tempo determinato, mi sto facendo il mazzo per vincere un concorso, non ho conoscenze e non ho mai barato, nemmeno all'esame di quinta. Ah. E mi fermo al rosso...ma certo, devo essere un'eccezione. E'una questione di numeri. How do you say? "Degree"?
Chia

With 85% of American students admitting they cheat I'm having a hard time believing you didn't cheat. What you are one of the few honest Americans? Come on pull the other leg it's got bells on it. Every body knows American cheat all the time.

quote:

Originally posted by Nick:
Every body knows American cheat all the time.

So much for rejecting sweeping generalizations!

quote:

Originally posted by Nick:

quote:

Originally posted by Emily:
I still disagree, Nick, but please put down your epee. I don't believe that any university seriously thinks that having students sign a contract enforces an honor code; nor do I think they mean to imply that their students would not behave honorably without such a contract.

Lets change it for a moment.

Imagine going to the mall. At the door you find a guard who hands you a piece of paper.

" I, FILL IN YOUR NAME HERE, promise to not shop lift. If I shop lift I will go straight to jail"

Nobody would consider that a honor system. Most people would be offended by just being handed the form.

Interesting analogy, Nick, but not quite the same thing. Shoplifting is stealing, and that is breaking the law. Most people are aware that stealing is a crime that will be punished (or at least I hope so).

Not quite the same in an academic setting where students are often unaware of the subtleties involved in cheating. I've had students tell me "But I wasn't plagiarizing; I changed some of the words." (In fact, the Washington Post article you posted, notes that this is often the case.)

Perhaps we should do more at the lower levels to help students understand these subtleties, but I don't think it's wrong for a university to clearly establish what is and what is not acceptable at that institution. It the right of the university to do so as it is the right of a student to refuse to comply. No one forces anyone to attend any institution of higher learning.

I must also agree with Primina. You have just made a "sweeping generalization." If Primina says she never cheated, I, for one, believe her. As a teacher, I know that many students do indeed cheat; I also know that many do not, and it is unfair to paint everyone with the same brush.
_____________

But again we are straying from the topic. Without doubt, it's difficult to explain to children that it is important to be honest when so many of their classmates are "taking the easy way out."

Changing the attitudes of the adults in a school can be a daunting task, but it's certainly worth a try. Perhaps the administration needs to be made aware of your concerns. Of course, there are no guarantees that they will do anything about it, but at least it's a start. Do other parents have similar concerns? If several parents join together, some changes may be made.

I know that there a cheaters all over the world - there must be. I've come to terms with the fact that there will always be dishonest people I cross paths with, and at the same time honest people that make me happy to be human again.

In this issue, I think cultural differences do exist. The first thing I think of is the word "furbo" - which was a difficult concept for me when I first learned it and though now I get it, it is still hard for me to put into English words so I can explain it to someone else. It has both positive and negative connotations to it. The closest English word I can think of would be "clever", but to me it hardly touches on everything "furbo" stands for.

That said, I think everyone knows it is morally wrong to cheat.

Nick, what's wrong with you? And I mean that seriously, amico.

Tiffany, you could translate 'furbo' into 'shrewd,' but you are right in that it doesn't fully capture the meaning and 'shrewd' is not a word that's so commonly used in the English language. I personally don't see people using the word 'furbo' in a positive way, but I guess some people's 'furbizia' is so innovative, you almost have to admire it.
Michelle

Furbo = sly as a fox, at least this tome explains it a little better.

BTW and for what is is worth at this point, cheating is highly frowned upon around here. Even in the first grade, when they take a test, all of the desks are moved so kids cannot sit too close to each other and cheat.