Buon Giorno!

Furbo may be also positive.
When you say "Fare il furbo" means cheating, trying the shortcut in an unfair way.

"I furbi esistono sempre"= there are always people trying to cheat you, but it's also a little self celebrating.

When you say "sei stato furbo a non lasciarti coinvolgere" for example, it has more of a "smart" connotation.

"Sei Furbetto!" that means you are able!

In the end, it depends on the context.

What I think is something "cultural" in the way many mean it here, it is not "making the furbi" but admiring the "furbi". In my opinion, it has a bittersweet tone of it though, at least for the most part. "I furbi vanno avanti nella vita" "I c...oni no" it has many times a bitter connotation you are a "c...one" yourself.

But we still go on. And we are the silent majority that would never teach our sons to be "furbi". At least I wouldn't.
Chia-

Thanks, Chia. I don't feel a positive sense of furbo, so I use it only in speaking of myself, jokingly when I have dodged a bullet aimed by some power. I did say it about my absentee owner neighbor who has made an earthquake claim to remodel the house she has not spent a cent on since 1957.

Chia, I see the present argument having perhaps more generational differences than cultural differences. I don't know any US parents who would cheer on cheating, but it may very well be that I just don't know them. The whole effect on me is nauseating. I would take it very personally if my kid cheated. I don't cheat. I've paid some heavy prices for that stance.

That said, I would buy a license if I could, because I think the tricky language used in the tests is designed to keep the driving schools in business. My license, with absolutely no points ever applied to it in the 40 years I have had it, ought to be as transferable as a Moroccan license or a British license. And yes, that is cheating the system.

quote:

Originally posted by Nick:
Call me old fashion but since when is being asked to sign a contract honor?

I'm with Emily on the honor code issue.

Of course there's no honor in being asked to sign a contract. In most cases, signing a contract is a morally neutral act.

With regard to honor codes, the honor is in the keeping of the promise and respecting the rules of a community one has agreed to be a member of. I guess it would be great if a group of 18-21 year olds would just decide to be honest without being asked to do so, but as the widespread university cheating suggests, it doesn't always happen that way.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill 2:
I'm sorry, but your MIL is dogging you out if she calls you furbo for getting your husband to do all the house cleaning while you did nothing.

Please explain 'dogging you out'.

It's American slang. Similar to 'getting on your case'.

Now just a cotton pickin’ minute….
Why are there so many people on this thread jumping up and down trying to defend the act of cheating as being ‘sort of OK’?

Cheating in ANY shape or form is not OK – never was, never will be….

So why are so many people willing to defend the indefensible?

Deirdre is quite right to question the appalling situation her daughter now finds herself in. How can it be OK for some to cheat and belittle all of her efforts?

Why is it not OK to snitch on your mates (?) if they get better marks than you by cheating? What should be accepted as the norm is that

“If you cheat – I will tell”.

What is going to happen when these ‘cheaters’ get a job? How will they actually get one? If that job is provided via the ‘it’s who you know’ system – what a shock the employer is going to get when this ‘dim wit’ tries to meet the requirements of the job. But people like Deirdre’s daughter will not have to face that dilemma because her future employer will get good value from an honest person.

Perhaps the fact that it is (or seems too be) within acceptable limits to a ) cheat and b) do nothing about it is the problem that Italy itself now faces (and probably has faced for some time). If a child’s parents cheated and got away with it, then the question arises on whether they knew or now know the difference between right and wrong? If they DO know the difference then they should be ashamed of themselves in perpetrating such shameful behaviour in their child. But if they DON’T know the difference – then what hope is there for honest children such as Deirdre’s daughter?

quote:

That said, I would buy a license if I could, because I think the tricky language used in the tests is designed to keep the driving schools in business.

Judith, people have made it sound worse than it is. My wife was afraid too, but she prepared, and when the test came, she finished quickly and didn't miss any questions. Buying a fake license to avoid the test is not a wise choice.

Now I feel even more right about the generational thing. We are close in age and feel pretty much the same except for the license issue. In which I feel cheated. A Moroccan shop owner said if I went to Marrakesh, a place I love, his brother would get me a legal Moroccan license which I could turn in here. The whole thing is ridiculous.

My husband was a biology professor in the US before we moved to Italy. When he caught a group of his students cheating he gave them all failing grades. They and many of their parents complained and the administration asked him to change the grades. He wouldn't do it! Most of these people were pre-med. Would you want a person who cheated on their exams as your doctor?

for Elaine's husband. There should be more teachers in the world like him!

Judith, I did not join an autoscuola. I did everything on my own. The only money the school got from me was for a couple of test drives with their car and the use of their car for the exam.

Practice with the WebPatente program, over and over and you should be fine. The longer you wait the harder it will become due to fear and as you know, since you have passed the one year mark, you are driving on borrowed time as they are getting stricter and stricter.

quote:

Originally posted by Elaine:
My husband was a biology professor in the US before we moved to Italy. When he caught a group of his students cheating he gave them all failing grades. They and many of their parents complained and the administration asked him to change the grades. He wouldn't do it! Most of these people were pre-med. Would you want a person who cheated on their exams as your doctor?

Good for him! I never caught anyone cheating on my exams, but I can't tell you how many plagiarists I caught. I used to fail them for the course. I even had one student who appealed first to the chair of the department and then to the dean of the school. It was a well documented case: I had found passages of her paper on a website, but she denied it, saying it was just a coincidence. When it finally got to the dean, who my chair told me was anxious that I "get rid of this problem," I told her that if she wouldn't back me I would resign. Fortunately, she rejected the student's appeal. My course was required for the student's major; she enrolled in it again did everything by the book that time, I might add with a pretty good attitude, and finished with a B.

One student once complained on the evaluation form that I was too strict because I had written in my syllabus that purported ignorance of the definition of plagiarism would be no excuse. That was really ridiculous given how many times I used to warn them about plagiarism and explain what it was so that they would avoid doing it "unintentionally." Unphased by the comment on the evaluation, I just incorporated it into my speeches on plagiarism, appearing all the more strict and mean, no doubt.

I am just of the opinion that not objecting to something that is wrong is just as bad as doing it yourself. My father was incredibly strict and while it drove me crazy as a teenager I am so thankful for it today.

quote:

Would you want a person who cheated on their exams as your doctor?

Or as the person piloting your plane?
Or as the person who programmed the X-ray (or cancer radiation therapy) machine they're about to use on your body?
Or as jurors at your trial?
etc.

quote:

I am just of the opinion that not objecting to something that is wrong is just as bad as doing it yourself.

It's more than just an opinion. After all the activities during the Holocaust, it's clear that doing so is clear, ethical thinking.

quote:

Originally posted by Nick:

She then went on to say

quote:

The effects of the lax attitude towards cheating have further consequences in society at large (e.g. an ex prime minister under indictment for tax evasion, fraud, etc.)

Implying that all Italians are crooks. That the "tough" attitude on cheating in the US has led to less crime.

Please note that my original post said NOTHING about the US. My daughter does not go to school in the US, nor did I - I attended an international boarding school in India where cheating was treated as an extremely serious matter which could (by explicitly stated school rules) result in being thrown out of the school.

Do I think all Italians are crooks? Obviously not. I'm married to one who is scrupulous in paying his (and our) taxes. And our blood boils every few years when there is a tax amnesty and we realize we could have saved tens of thosands of euros in taxes by cheating and then paying the minimal fines, as so many others do.

So, yes, I do think that the lax attitude towards cheating in schools is part of an overall pattern of "do whatever you can get away with" that pervades Italian culture, and has caused and is causing very traceable economic damage. Look up the history of "Mani Pulite" to see what lovely things have been done with our tax euros. Then ask yourself (or any Italian) how much has really been fixed since then.

What I think is wrong in the US goes on for pages (have you looked at my website?), but is not part of this discussion. One of the joys of being a third-culture kid is that I am keenly aware of what's good and bad in MANY different cultures. That does not imply any relative "this culture is better than that one" judgment. Just a wistful desire that each could borrow a few of the others' better qualities.

So Deirdre - what did you decide to do?

maybe deidre could suggest to the school she is thinking of moving her kid/s if the cheating is not investigated?
i know a couple of teachers here who have quit their jobs, because at their school the head techer takes notice of what the pupils say and makes the teachers do what they suggest. In her instance, she was told to stop speaking english in class (she is an english teacher!!) as the students complained it was too difficult and would prefer it if she spoke italian. Apparently the HOD didn't have good spoken english so he used to teach his classes only in italian, so he never backed up the teacher. The Head teacher said because the schools are funded per head, what happened when students complained and then the school did nothing was that the pupils transferred schools, and therefore also the funding.....

Since it's gone on in every school she has ever attended, changing schools is unlikely to resolve the cheating problem. Can we alert the teachers and try to make some changes in the school culture? Maybe. We're thinking about how this might be approached.

Unrelated to this (which frustrates me tremendously but doesn't bother Ross all that much), Ross is applying to Woodstock School, the school I attended in India. Which would be great for her in many ways, if she gets in, and if her current school agrees that she can come back and do her 5th year here without having to repeat the 4th... it's all very complicated.

As for cheating, I would like to think it would help if more people would simply speak out. As with so many things, even people who think it's wrong just look away, don't want to be involved, "che me ne frega a me?" ecc.

One evening when I was in a particularly bad mood I saw two boys smoking in the bus shelter. Aside from the fact that I had to be in there, breathing their smoke, to stay out of the rain, it bothered me that neither looked older than 13 - certainly not the 16 you theoretically need to be to buy cigarettes. So I asked them who sold them the cigarettes. They claimed, of course, to be old enough to buy them. Everyone else stared at my round-eyed: "Chi e' 'sta stronza che ficca il naso?"

Should I care if a couple of teenage idiots develop an addiction that will stay with them all their lives? Or about the lady at the station bar who probably sold them the cigarettes (I see her selling cigarettes to underage kids all the time)? Or the police at the station every day who never seem to notice this?

Well, yes, I care - who's going to pay the taxes to cover their hospital bills when they end up with very expensive lung cancer on the Italian public health system?

I had an interesting discussion with the Italian exchange student who is spending the year with us here in Calif. regarding this topic. He is 18 and a senior from Torino.
He said almost everyone he knows (including himself) brings in a small piece of paper with some notes on it for exams in his Italian liceo back home. He said it was a "cultural thing" and usually tolerated. He said the teachers in Italy don't frown upon it but he did seem to feel that it is cheating. He also noted the big difference in the attitude here (in the US) and that no one would dare be caught with any notes in his classes here (although we know it happens here to a lesser degree). He also felt that back in Italy the exams were more comprehensive and covered much more material and having a few 'notes' certainly wouldn't assure you of passing an exam. You still would have to know your material. He felt it would be impossible for many students to pass exams in Italy without some cheating.

The biggest difference he noted was the quantity of exams here vs. Italy. Here (in the US) if you are taking History or Math (for example), you would have 1-4 quizzes (usually weekly or twice a week) on the sections within a chapter. Then after 2 or more weeks you would have an exam on that chapter. Then you would also have mid terms and finals that cover several chapters.
In Italy however it is much different. There are no short quizzes (typically) or chapter tests. Often you spend months going through several chapters and then have a huge exam that covers several chapters or several times the material of the typical US exam. So your grade is based on maybe 2 big tests for an entire course and nothing else.

So maybe the system needs to be changed. The current Italian system appear to make it easy for the teachers. They have big exams (probably graded with a "Scantron") and little other things to correct. I have several friends here in the US who are teachers and they are constantly 'grading papers' after school (quizzes, HW, exams etc.). The Italian system seems to eliminate some of this extra work for the teachers but forces the students to have an impossible amount of material for each exam. Hence the cheating. I guess the teachers don't intervene in Italy because it may work in their favor to keep the system the way it is (just a guess??). Anyway our Italian student is doing fine in his classes here without any extra "notes" because of the way the testing is paced. He feels if it was like this in Italy there would be little need to cheat.

About cheating:
I don't feel like justyfing the cheating because the exam is "big" or cover a wide program.

I think it should be made a distinction in the so-called justifications given by students:

a) there are the ones that would not pass the exam unless they cheat: in the end they will get a qualification they don't deserve. This has lead to qualified people on the paper who are not actually qualified. Hence the depreciation of the degree. ( una laurea non si nega a nessuno / tutti vogliono il figlio dottore)

b) there are the ones that cheat to get better grades, and this has lead to the depreciation of the higher marks (see the fact that the bigger companies have widened their interviews also to non top-rated graduates, so it is also market related because US graduates are 21 y.o.).

I don't like cheating, but I did it. When I complain because I failed a test my mother tell me I am stupid because "I'm the only fool that does not cheat". This might be true because if you are stupid, your employer will notice it anyway and will fire you despite the fact you scored a high mark in your course study.

About the exams:

Yes, exams here are really big. But it is not something impossible to do (otherwise there would have been no graduated ever). As Medica's friend said, a six month program can't stay in the palm of the hand. Then you can have all the "bigliettini" you want but you cannot write an essay on them.
Also, it is not impossible to score high marks but this require more time and we all know that employers want young graduated.(I will graduate on time at the age of 24, a doctor will graduate on time at the age of 29, an US graduated is 21 y.o.)

Also, from what I get (I have been always studying in Italy, so I cannot make comparisons on my personal experience) here there is a lot more theory to be memorized. We don't have multiple answers tests (98% of exam of my faculty don't have them), so you actually have to know all of it together.
I had only one course with tests each two weeks (Organizzazione Aziendale) and frankly it was ridicolous because we had to study the equivalent of 4 pages of a newspaper and it was not hard at all to keep in mind that small amount of informations. Of course, the next day they were completely forgotten.

We don't have marks on group projects done at home. This could be a small part of the mark but usually no more than 1/3 of the final mark. We don't get grades on essays written at home.
So you have to show what you know in the classroom and in these 2-3-4 hours you play all your cards. I have 5-6 chances per year to pass an exam, sometimes even lesser. For each subject there are two tests in February, two in July and one or two in September. Some professors play the so called "salto d'appello", this means that you cannot try the test twice in a month and also that you have a chance every 6 months to pass an exam. Some professors put the two date of the same month in a week (for example on the 8th and on the 18th) so that you basically have one chance anyway.

About the highschool:

From what I have heard, in the US they put emphasis on the sports. I always had to fight with my teacher to play students' game (giochi della gioventù). They menaced to give me a 4 (out of ten) if I went to the games (2 days per year, I mean...). The teacher argued between them because of that, too.

I have never had a knitting class, or drama, or theater, or lab. There was nobody qualified to teach these things, and they are seen as extracurricular activites. My highschool had a drama class in the afternoon but there were a very few people attending because we had lessons in the morning only and for those who came from another town it meant to come home at 6PM instead of 2PM ( = wasting an entire afternoon to play instead of studying), the same for the volleyball class and the basketball class.



I suggest Deirdre to tell her daughter Ross that cheating is up to her but her mom does not approve it. There will come a time when Ross will really need to know these things and if she hasn't studied before she will get in trouble. Prima o poi tutti i nodi vengono al pettine!

I don't think that talking with the headmaster about cheating will change anything. If I pass an exam without cheating I get more satisfation although I scored a lower mark and I'm OK with my coscience.
On my first job interview as an engineer the interviewer made remarks about my low score. But I know that you cannot measure people with numbers.

quote:

I don't like cheating, but I did it. When I complain because I failed a test my mother tell me I am stupid because "I'm the only fool that does not cheat".

quote:

I suggest Deirdre to tell her daughter Ross that cheating is up to her but her mom does not approve it.

First you say you don't like cheating but you do it, with your mother's encouragement.

Then you suggest Deirdre tell her daughter that cheating is up to her, though her Mom doesn't approve.

Will you pass these same values down to your children someday?

My mom tells me I should do it too because I get frustrated from a common behaviour. You can't fight the system.

However I didn't say I cheated BECAUSE my mom authorized me to do so.
Simply if you live in such environment where cheating is widely diffused, where bribe are the common in the business, where recommendation are the usual way to get a job,...you won't go so far if you play fair.

Do you prefer a child leaving school because he/she could not make it without cheating? Or because he/she felt frustrated for ages being the less good student of the class just because didn't cheat?

If you are OK with yourself, you should let it be enough. Because in the end marks are not given "just to grade you", but because you graduation mark is your first business card.
Do you think that telling my interviewer that "I scored so low because I didn't cheat" would have been a good answer? That I would have gotten the
job?