quote:

Are you saying that in Italy the marks you get are not considered a measure of your skills? If that is true, then why are tests given?

[here] You don't apply for jobs with your marks from elementary or high school. Those marks are there for one single reason; to get you into higher education. However, you don't need great marks to get into college/university either because the authorities know that marks are not a good way of showing who a person is or what they know and so there is this 'college test' I mentioned.

And quite frankly, the way it is today you rarely even apply for a job with your college degree. Everybody has one nowadays, so what it boils down to is who you are, how you present yourself and (here it comes!) who you know. Personality matters more than grades today.

I guess this is part of the answer to why "we Europeans" don't care too much for school. There is a major lack of motivation among students (again, not talking about college/university here!) because we just can't see the point in investing blood sweat and tears in getting good marks when we really don't need them later anyway.

I'm not defending, I'm trying to explain.

Cheating on a few tests as kids doesn't make us bad people. It doesn't turn us into illiterate, uneducated fools who don't know **** about anything. There are other ways to learn. School is not the only place where you can get an education.

quote:

quote:

Originally posted by Annika:
What frightens me in all this is how judgmental so many people are.

Are you non-judgemental, Annika?

Well, I guess not. That statement in itself is judgmental.
But hey, you can't expect more from me than that. After all, I cheated in high school. I don't know any better.

I personally don't think we need to go back and persecute people for their past actions. How many Americans drink alcohol before they are 21? I'm virtually raising my hand here. That's illegal, but that doesn't mean we are all destined to a life of law-breaking. You could argue that it's a stupid law, but at the end of the day, it's a law and there is no true justification in breaking it. That's my point anyway. So, you cheated. That's for you to work out with your own conscience. But just don't try to justify it.
Michelle

quote:

....So, you cheated. That's for you to work out with your own conscience. But just don't try to justify it.

The 'operative' word being 'don't'!

Hi,

Michelle wrote:

quote:

How many Americans drink alcohol before they are 21? I'm virtually raising my hand here. That's illegal, but that doesn't mean we are all destined to a life of law-breaking.

that's exactly what I tried to convey. I am a very product of Italian culture (and PROUD of it!) I couldn't be more Italian than I am already. And though. Without being perfect, I feel independent, I am a honest worker, I love my Country, I get very angry to unjustices and menefreghismo, I don't throw my thrash away, I don't chitchat at work instead of working when there is someone at my sportello,I also (occasionally) like other than Italian food.

So, dear thread starter, before stating that tricks at school make trickers in life, and, more worse, before saying it's"widely"accepted by teachers(widely who? are you talking about the entire Italian teachers group? Not my mother or the teachers I encountered during my years at elementary school, scuole medie,liceo and university and post laurea master)or parents (parents who? are you talking about all parents? not my mother or father again,) better thinking about it twice. You just could irk someone's very italian nerves (for instance mine).

Chia

Long rant advisory.

I thought that it might be helpful here to quote the thread starter. Sometimes it helps to read a post before deciding what it says. Please note that she uses the term widespread not in conjunction with the word Italy, but instead with the phrase "among her [daughter's] classmates:"

quote:

Originally posted by Deirdre:
My daughter has been telling me since elementary school about widespread cheating among her classmates (while she comes by her failing grades honestly).

She then adds:

quote:

My husband has to take extraordinary measures to try to stop cheating in the university exams he administers; apparently many profs just don't bother.

From her experience with her daughter, she then hypothesizes:

quote:

High school teachers seem oblivious to the scale of cheating going on under their noses. The culture seems to assume that this is how you pass through a difficult school system and hence get ahead in life.

Deirdre's daughter has changed high schools at least once, and so has experience of more than one school. It is likely for this reason that she feels comfortable using the plural "high school teachers" and makes the suggestion, reasonable based on her experience with various schools her daughter has attended, that there is a prevailing culture that turns a blind eye to cheating. What parents is she talking about? Well, inferring from the way she's prefaced it all by referring to her daughter's various schools, she is writing about the parents of the classmates among whom the cheating in question is widespread.

I suppose the part that got some people's knickers is a twist, though, is really this:

quote:

The effects of the lax attitude towards cheating have further consequences in society at large (e.g. an ex prime minister under indictment for tax evasion, fraud, etc.). On the train recently I overheard a young woman talking about her brother, doing some kind of medical qualification:" He never opens a book, he says he can just copy from others during the exams." I feel really good at the idea of this guy someday practicing medicine on me...

Okay, why does Deirdre say these things? Well, I am guessing that Deirdre believes that individuals who learn that it is acceptable to justify certain types of bad behavior will later have little difficulty going on to justify other types too. Once you've justified something wrong because you found yourself in extenuating circumstances, it becomes easier to do it the next time. The next time my just be something small, like not telling the cashier about the extra 5 cents she accidentally gave you. Or it might be bigger: you hit a car in a parking lot and don't wait around or leave a note with your contact info. And you find a way to justify it. So you either avoid the slippery slope or you don't.

The thing about this last part of the post is that aside of the prime minister comment (which is sadly, supported by facts,) she could be saying this about any country in the world. She is writing about Italy, though, and not because she thinks Italy is a bad place to live (read her blog and see her love for this country) or because she wants to make comparisons between educational systems in one country or another.

Deirdre came to this forum with her post because this is a real problem she is having in Italy. I have noticed that sometimes when members post their problems or negative experiences, there are some people who are very quick to discount those experiences because they do not square with their "reality." I am fairly certain that that actual word was used in one such post.

Do the people who do this not see the irony in saying that they reject another's characterizations of their experiences because they do not square with the way they themselves characterize their own experiences?

Anyway, I am not going to make a judgement either way about cheating in Italian schools because I only have experience with cheating in American schools (and let me tell you, they really do cheat there, too.) I am just getting really tired of seeing people get flamed for relating their experiences, and often by people who seem to jump to conclusions rather than doing careful readings of the posts. Can we have a forum where people are allowed to relate negative experiences?

And honestly, I don't really think it's all that radical to say that allowing children to behave badly isn't going to interfere with teaching them how to be well-behaved adults. Because that's really what this boils down to.

Do I need to add the disclaimer that I don't hate Italy?

quote:

Do the people who do this not see the irony in saying that they reject another's characterizations of their experiences because they do not square with the way they themselves characterize their own experiences?

As long as they state and they make it clear they are only experiences it is good for the people you seem to mention. And this goes both ways. But I just want to make it clear here

a)Nobody rejects nothing
b) none flames nobody
c)am I allowed to state there might be also different experiences? Or is this flaming?
d) I do not want to involve people, so I will not ask Cristina, but I really do believe nobody on this thread was flamed for her(his opinions, at least until now.

So maybe careful reading of ALL the posts should really be recommended.

I should be the lawyer. Apparently, though, lawyers here are many. Good competition.
Chia

And Annika, you are so not a despicable person! You cheated in high school. If that's the worst thing you've ever done in your life, well, you're doing pretty well. If it's not the worst you've done, well, I still doubt very much that you are a despicable person. There are few people who are actually despicable. I am thinking about dictators who commit genocide, for example.

The rest of us are ordinary people who are confronted daily with choices that are really hard to make. Sometimes we do the right thing, other times we don't. I didn't cheat in high school, but I did plenty of other things that were wrong and I used to justify them too, and I was very good at it. Later I just came to realize that justifying even little things that are wrong can really hurt us if we get too good at rationalizing. That's all I wanted to say.

BTW, when I taught I had quite a few students who had to take additional courses with me after I caught them cheating or plagiarizing. The first day of class they were always so nervous. They would apologize to me and it was always obvious they were afraid that I would hold their mistakes against them. Without an exception, I told everyone of them that they were starting a new course, just like everyone else in the class, and that they were going to be graded only on what happened from that day on.

quote:

Originally posted by Chia of Bologna:
Sorry Michelle et al not particularly loving my style of putting things in perspective when people just take one default and make it a single unique and totally disconnected from other realities flaw of our "culture".
Ok disclaimer: am I defensive? Ok go for it. Enough is enough.

quote:

Sorry for my "Rage & flames" (and highly
politically uncorrect and rude intervention)over a "Poster's concern" (oh dear!). In all the honesty, it seemed to me a little more than a concern. And per finire...sorry but even hearing it's a "matter of exception to a rule" here I find it insulting. Ah now I recall, it must be a matter of degree...that's the difference between an insult and a concern...the degree of a phenomenon...the difference between culture and exception...But anyway. Maybe I just only "percieved the first post as insulting" as I once was told, so that surely must be my problem.

quote:

Buona notte.
Chia

quote:

But from this to just assume some sort of assiomas as some "enlightened" thread starters seem to do here it's a far way. Difficult to explain.

quote:

OOps...mi sono persa qualcosa?

nothing to add here (what I thought I already told:eg certain maestrini thread starters should be more accurate before getting into italian/European matters in the Land of contradictions and gray in such a tranching judgemental "black - white" way)except girls I love you!

quote:

So, dear thread starter, before stating that tricks at school make trickers in life, and, more worse, before saying it's"widely"accepted by teachers(widely who? are you talking about the entire Italian teachers group? Not my mother or the teachers I encountered during my years at elementary school, scuole medie,liceo and university and post laurea master)or parents (parents who? are you talking about all parents? not my mother or father again,) better thinking about it twice. You just could irk someone's very italian nerves (for instance mine).

so what?

One word: wow.

Interesting thread, on a subject that seems to be far more important to Anglos than for the, er, pragmatic and "flexible" Italians. Anybody who's read their Barzini (and their Machiavelli) should be unsurprised.
That said,I don't envy parents who come up against the phenomenon!
I was brought up not to cheat because: a)it was wrong b) you were in BIG TROUBLE if you got caught c)pride--I would have been ashamed of myself.
Years ago, I had to do the Maturità Exam (in Catanzaro) to get into Italian university--I was absolutely floored to see so many kids copying and teachers "suggesting" during the essay part.
Since then I've seen parents doing their kids' homework for them, students bribing teachers, etc etc., I won't go on since it appears to be offensive on this board. I don't know whether it is more common here, especially since college students in the States are now "consumers" and want their money's worth in grades, but it seems to just elicit a shrug and a chuckle in Italy.
I live in a university town and work around researchers, some truly brilliant (who did NOT cheat their way to the top.)
There are also a lot of mediocre cheaters and raccommandati everywhere, who get the cushy jobs. And people wonder why there is a Brain Drain in Italy...

Define cheating. Is it just about cheating in school? Or do we take a broader definition. In the broader definition I doubt we would find a non cheater on the board.

Professoressa one of the reasons I hardly come here to expats anymore is the lack of sensitivity to everyones individual condition... each of us has our own perspective of our little piece of the neighborhood.

My son is in Italian schools and kids cheat and teachers ignore your kid if your not hounding them and parents do their childrens homework and the foreign kids don't get much help when they need it, this isn't a figment of anyones immagination...it just is. My son even told me that a kid in his class was told by his mother to lie and smile nice to the teacher and tell her how much he likes her class and gave him a present to take to her...even tho he hated her guts, just to get a passing grade...nobody was fooled and yet he passed.

But there are those that don't play games and with their parents help learn to be good students.

And Chia, this could be the case just about anywhere, only we've got a little harder time being of help to our kids, so feel impotent sometimes, maybe a little sensitivity with our trying to understand things from the other side of the looking glass would be in order instead of being offended, I'm sure that you had plenty of instances when you were away from 'your' country... when how they did things made no sense and was worth a rant! A little empathy on so many levels would be more helpful.

Thank you, Bardigiana!

quote:

Originally posted by jhelm:
Define cheating.

Cheating is when you get an advantage from something you don't deserve.

For example if I study simply memorizing things, I can hold it for one week, just the time to pass the test.
Then I will completely forget about it(instead of understanding the subject I merely memorized it).

This means that in the end I'll have a scratch of paper where there is written that I DO know these stuffs, but the truth is that I don't. I just was able to write about them for one week in my life, but I'll benefit of these grades forever.

I think we all know what cheating in school is. Mine was a broader question.

But I guess it bothers me the attitude that this is so much worse in Italy maybe it is I don't know. I just know that everything complained about goes on in the US where I came from. Even the parents doing the homework bit. My sister in a very nice (rich) area of San Diego used to complain about this, if kids were assigned to make a model of something for example some would arrive with models looking like they had been built by professional model builders, obviously not the work of an 11 year old.

In high school kids used to cheat off me all the time. There was a guy in a drafting class who used to punch pin holes through the drawings of others and then connect the dots on his paper.

I don't approve of it and I'm sorry for the child who suffers because of the cheating of the others. But that child who does her own work will win in the end.

No one has mentioned oral exams, aren't they still very common in Italy, hard to cheat on them. Final exam for my wife and her borther and sister from university consisted of an oral exam and presentation in front of family and friends before a board of school examiners. That would scare me to death.

And by the way these graduates of the Italian school system have all done very well in other environments, outside of Italy.

I wonder if some people are more vocal about the cheating here because many people who come here, though by no means all, do so because they want to escape the U.S. I think many people want to think of Italy as a place that has simpler values and a more honest lifestyle. After putting the country up on a pedestal, it's disappointing to find that the some of the same problems plague Italy as other countries. I don't know, this is just a thought and I need to think about it some more.

But then there's the very practical fact that if we live here, it's what we see. Kind of like this: sure it's bad in the U.S., but I don't live there anymore so it affects my daily life less. Just another thought.

quote:

Originally posted by jhelm:
No one has mentioned oral exams, aren't they still very common in Italy, hard to cheat on them.

Indeed, someone did it and said that there were classmates suggesting the answers.

I don't know where do you know from that fact, but oral exams are the most frequent ones in the university (especially in the humanistic faculties). And there are a lot of exams which have both the written and the oral test.

In the highschool there were "interrogazioni" (oral exams) in each subject: from math to Latin, from physic to Italian.
And the final exam (maturità) had a written part (three days long): one test on Italian, one on the peculiar subject of your school (mine was math) and one with questions about other 3-4 subjects (they vary from year to year, I had science, physic, history and latin). Then you have to present a work (tesina di maturità) in front of a commission made of teachers (not all yours, but this has varied within years) and a public (classmates, parents,..) and each teacher make you a questions about his/her subject.

In the university (engineering), I have both written and oral tests, some subjects require only a written/oral test, others both, others have a compulsory written text and you take the oral test if you want.

Plus, I would like to add that you cannot assume that you can cheat on every exam of your life. There are teachers who allow you to cheat, others that don't bother and others who yell at you "Next time I see you talking with your friend I throw the both of you out".

It seems that there are people here who assume that since you cheated once you cheated ever since and therefore all your qualifications are not earn. Also, a lot thinks that since you were able to cheat when you were an innocent kid you will be likely turn into a fraudolent man/woman.
I think that since I have broken the rules when I was younger I won't be tempted to break them when I will be an adult (I think I'm already am, ).

I'd like also to add a thing: I had 82/100 (min is 60/100) at my Esame di Maturità although I have never took a sufficent mark in math since the second year (out of five). But on the paper there is written that since I completed Liceo Scientifico I have a strong preparation in math.
Do marks lie?

At the university I have never had problems with math exams, although they scared me to death "on the paper". So, assuming that math at the engineering faculty is harder than math in the highschool, how do you justify that?
a) I have turned into a math geek (closing a 4 years gap all in one)
b) I never scored good marks in the highschool because I was lazy (also to make bigliettini)
c) I have been cheating on every exam at the university
d) I have paid all my professors of university to pass exams
e) I had bad teachers in the highschool

If marks talk, please explain me what you get from my marks.

Well, Pola, I think that it's pretty obvious that it's because you're a math geek.

I hope you don't mind that coming from another geek, albeit not a math one.

I don't think anyone really wanted to say that kids who cheat will necessarily grow up to be criminals. I can only speak for myself, but I am pretty sure that all the other hardliners, like me, wanted to say was cheating is wrong and that it's not good to justify something that is wrong.

quote:

c) I have been cheating on every exam at the university
d) I have paid all my professors of university to pass exams

Sorry I'm not sure I understand this. Is that what you have been doing or is it the opposit.

What you get from good marks is the chance to move on to higher levels, get into better schools, and even get sometimes better jobs. Therefor those who can't get them honestly may be tempted to cheat.