I have to agree with Alice. My children had a negative experience during one year of English in elementary school, e.g. the plural of tooth is tooths (teacher). I told them not to bother correcting the teacher and to ask me if they were confused.
However, in high school they both benefited from English grammar and spelling, as they spoke like any other American but their spelling was awful. Learning British English was also a plus, as both use English for work and mainly work with the U.K. or other Europeans so I would say it was to their advantage.
I also agree that a lot has to do with the teacher, and they were both lucky in this respect.

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e.g. the plural of tooth is tooths

LOL! I briefly had such a teacher for a few months in high school. To her the plural of woman was womens («It's a plural, you know»). She didn't last long, luckily!

If the teacher is smart, then it can be beneficial to have a bilingual kid in the language class as Alice explained. I guess it depends a lot on "how" bilingual the kid is - ie do they still need to learn spelling and grammar, or ar ethey completely fluent. If they can read, write and understand to a level above the teachers then in that case it would only be beneficial to the teacher and the other kids, rather than to the bilingual kid.

Even if the child is totally fluent also in writing, the teacher can tailor the lessons so that they don't get totally boring for the child. When I was in school, though, a child could chose between several langauges. Almost all schools offered at least Engoish and French, some also offered Spanish and German, a tiny number offered other European langauges. With all of the pressure bneing put on English, I am not sure that these languages are still being offered, if they are the bilingual child's parents may chose to request one for these langauges for the child.

I think I read somewhere that English is now compulsory in Italian public schools. Maybe this is the problem - lack of flexibility to let a kid take another language when they are already fluent in English.

I really can't imagine how an English class could be anything but boring if you are already fluent in the language. Teaching spelling to children who are fluent in a language is completely different from teaching English as a second language.

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Originally posted by Alice Twain:
They suffered her being a native and therefore being able to point out their mistakes, while a smarter person would have rejoiced of this opportunity to refine the language while, at the same time, strived to offer stimula (sp?) to Ross to grow even better in her "other" mothertongue.

In fact we had very mixed experiences with the various teachers. Her elementary teacher did exactly as you suggest and it was a success for everybody. Most since then have resented her presence, though Ross eventually learned to keep her mouth shut rather than correct the teacher's mistakes. Several have delighted in marking her down for silly little mistakes just to prove some kind of point (or exult in their own power). One went so far as to call me in for a conference because she claimed to be concerned about Ross' English! I don't know whether she was offended or relieved that I spoke to her entirely in Italian.

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Originally posted by Deirdre:
One went so far as to call me in for a conference because she claimed to be concerned about Ross' English! I don't know whether she was offended or relieved that I spoke to her entirely in Italian.

That is completely insane! Sounds like she was actually jealous that a child in the class spoke better English than her.

You should have spoken to her in rapid fire English- chucking in some obscure expressions and a bit of slang just to confuse her.

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Originally posted by Deirdre:
Several have delighted in marking her down for silly little mistakes just to prove some kind of point (or exult in their own power). One went so far as to call me in for a conference because she claimed to be concerned about Ross' English! I don't know whether she was offended or relieved that I spoke to her entirely in Italian.

That is awful. And offensive. How is it possible for someone to have studied English for a few years to think they are a match for a native speaker? I speak Italian fluently and have studied Italian grammar intensely, but my Italian does not compare to a native speaker that has been speaking Italian their entire life. Nor would I ever dream of such a comparison. I wonder what would happen if you corrected her ITALIAN!

Why do they have that feeling of superiority? Where does it come from? If its the British thing, I seriously doubt that British English teachers are teaching Italian students that American English is inferior...

I'm feeling that this subject, English lessons, is not being dealt with in a realistic way. A child of English speaking parents living in Italy is not going to be proficient in English just because he speaks it at home. What about all those years of English that we native speakers had at school, reading, literature, grammer, composition, etc. The problem is that for the most part the kind of lessons the native speaker needs are not available unless he goes to an English speaking school or some particular school for native speakers. So, I think if we can't or don't want to put them in that sort of school we must be happy with what we can get in the Italian schools. It's better than nothing. I am concerned about this and wondering if we need to think about special lessons, sending our kids to summer school in the US or something else. I don't want them to grow up not being able to write a decent letter in English even though they may speak pretty well.

As far as the teachers go. Of course we would like perfection, but I think it might be a bit too much to expect a teacher who studied English as a second language, probably only speaks it when teaching and is only teaching at the lower grades to be as proficient as a native speaker. Let's give them a break. And I think we can imagine how they might feel intimadated having a native speaker in their class. Different teachers will deal with this in different ways the teacher with a good level of self esteme will use the student to his advantage while the other might pick on the kid. It's probably going to be one of life's lessons our kids have to learn. As parent's we need to help them learn how to deal with problems like this.

I've heard some folks home school their kids on English grammar, composition and literature. Not only do the kids learn the required material, but it's good quality time for the parent(s) and kids.

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Originally posted by Bill 2:
I've heard some folks home school their kids on English grammar, composition and literature. Not only do the kids learn the required material, but it's good quality time for the parent(s) and kids.

That is a potential solution, which we may try, problem being time. My daughter goes to school at 8 finishes two days at 4:30 the others at 4:00, actual school finishes at 1:30 those three days, but at the school she is in the extra time is devoted to homework. Then after school there is dance 2 days, athletics 1 or 2 days. A pretty tired kid arrives home a 6:30.

I agree it might be too much during the school year. Might work during the summer break, or on an occasional weekend during the school year.

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Originally posted by Ramona:
Sounds like she was actually jealous that a child in the class spoke better English than her.

That was probably the case. And probably she was also scared that the presence in the class of such a child could endanger her "authority" in the class environmjent. Bad teachers tend to act more as "cops" than teachers, they seem to think that their main role in the classroom is to keept things quiet. Often these are also the teachers tht are unable to come up with lessons that kleep the whole classroom interested. This lack of interest is often audible because the students grow bored, talk toe ach other or just look for other things to do (reading, listening to ipods, etc.). Unable to make the lessons more interesting, these teachers ely on being more authoritative than autoritarian. Thus they also resent the presence of any authoritative person in the classroom, be it a visiting teacher from another class, a native langauge "lettore" or even just a student like Ross.

jhelm: "Different teachers will deal with this in different ways the teacher with a good level of self esteme will use the student to his advantage while the other might pick on the kid."

Uh, who's the grownup in this scenario? Is it forgiveable for a teacher to belittle a child in front of the whole class because the teacher feels threatened by the child's proficiency in the teacher's subject? I don't see why I, the parent, am supposed to be understanding of this sort of juvenile behavior by an adult in a position of power over my child.

I never expected native proficiency in English, nor would I have belittled these teachers for their lack of it. But lack of child psychology and basic human decency - yes, I have a right to be upset about that.

FWIW, part of the reason I encouraged Ross to use the Internet was that it got her writing in English (to American friends)!

Deirdre, nothing I wrote was directed at you personally, or your situation. In the extreme or even very bad case, the parent should take some action. It seems your daughter has had the worst of it from math to English. I'm really writing to the general audience and somewhat to myself in preparation for the future.

Teachers should of course be mature adults, wouldn't it be nice if that were always true.

My daughter last year in 1st grade blurted out something in English one day and all the kids laughed. She hasn't really spoken anymore than the required words in English class since. I suppose if the teacher were grading her on class participation and spoken English her grade would only be average.

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My daughter last year in 1st grade blurted out something in English one day and all the kids laughed. She hasn't really spoken anymore than the required words in English class since. I suppose if the teacher were grading her on class participation and spoken English her grade would only be average.

Isn't that worrying in itself - 'required words'? No opportunity for free production in small groups or pairs where every student can work at their own level. If they are better than average they then expose their companion(s) to more language.

As a teacher of languages (even if not fully qualified to teach in UK schools) a lot of what I've heard here (and elsewhere for that matter) is a bit worrying and demonstrates a lack of professionalism. It IS difficult to cope with widely differing levels in the same class, and it's something I've worried about in the past, but you constantly adapt and change along with the students. If there is a stronger student, for example, you can use them to help a weaker one. You enlist their help and engage them at the same time. If you are not sure about something in your second language it's no shame to admit or check - I do it when I teach beginner's Italian - if I haven't already in my preparation.

Suefischio - maybe that approach to language education explains the general lack of language skills here in Italy.

My boyfriend is Dutch and I always notice the difference when we go to Holland and hang out with his nieces and nephews (who are between 10 and 14 years old.) In Holland, they start English classes only at age 12, but BF's 12, 13 and 14 year old nipoti are perfectly happy to have basic chats with me in English. They don't care about making mistakes- they just speak. Apparently this is how language classes are conducted in Holland - they are required to speak from day 1 and Dutch is not allowed in class. Almost all the TV they watch is in English too so they are used to hearing it.

Here I tutor some kids that age who have been doing English classes since primary school. But they have never had to speak or have a basic conversation in English. In class they do endless grammar exercises (explained in Italian) and read things like Jonathan Swift in the original (way too hard for them - so they just translate the whole thing into Italian.) I'm sure they do fine in grammar tests but if they can't answer the question "how are you?" they have a problem.

Reminds me of a time last year when I was instructed to meet the parents of my brother in law's sister in law. They had an 18 yr old daughter who was studying English at University in Italy and wanted to come to England for a few weeks in summer. Being total parents from hell (this girl was not allowed any freedom at all) I got questioned heavily about England and dangers - especially the fact that there were many immigrants there. This really got my back up!

Anyway - the girl herself had not spoken a word during this interview. At the end I said to her, in English, something along the lines of 'good luck, hope you can come'. She looked at me blankly. Was obvious that she did not understand me. What on earth was she studying if she cannot understand a simple sentence?

Did she come to England? No. After my having made several phone calls enquiring about college accommodation, courses etc, we never heard a peep from her family.

Seriously though, none of husband's family or friends speak any English, despite all of them having learned at school. I was taught French and German at my school. Whilst sadly (and wierdly) I have lost the total ability to speak French, the Italian words coming out instead, from the time I started learning Italian, I can still read and understand French. My German is very basic but still enough to get by. Surely that says something about schooling methods?

Hi,

I can't tell how good my English is, but I suspect much is due to the teachers you got in High school.
I am autodidatta (learnt by myself) for the most part, but I wouldn't dismiss reading the classics so quickly, IMO.

What I know of English (and French--and German)I learnt

a) through my good teachers (even Italian) at school, who never asked me to translate Swift,or Gide, or Melville or whoever into Italian while we read it

b) reading the classics of English, French and American literature

c) watching the TV movies and miniseries in original language without subtitles

d) traveling and translating technical books I needed at the university for my studies.

I might not be an English nerd, but I at least understand you all.

Chia

Let me point out a couple of things. Most of the English teachers in primary school are NOT English teachers: they have been "recycled" from other classes, so they know nothing about langauge didactics.
Also, unused langauges fade. Most people who studied English (or French or German or Spanish) at junior high and/or high school have not been practicing the langauge after they finished studying it and thus they forgot what they knew.

Just like Chia, I have studied English at junior high and high school with mainly itliant eachers, some with an excellent knowledge of the langaues and of langauge didactics, and some lousy in both departments, but after school I kept praticing my English regularly reading (classics and bestsellers alike, and lots of SF!). Watching movies in English with no subtitles, occasionally traveling. By the end of high school, I had been stdying English, french and Spanish and knew the three of them at about the same level, plus a bit of german. Now, almost twenty years after, while I have grown far more fluent in Elighs than I used to be, I almost totally forgot French and Spanish due to lack of pratice.

..and we understand you Chia, and that's what it's all about. Also you _used_ the language in various different ways (and still use it here). It's understanding language for a purpose and also producing it, even with mistakes, that leads to improvement.

AT and Chia - that's exactly what I'm talking about - not being afraid to actually USE the language ie speak it even when making mistakes, watch TV in the original language, read in the original langauge. That's what I try to do in Italian (and before that Russian and French.)

My problem though is that I've had several students who could not have a basic conversation with me "hi, how was your weekend?" etc. and basically were afraid to use English. But in their English classes at school they were reading archaic and difficult passages of Swift, Melville etc. (featuring words such as "kerchef", "snuff" and "thou" which are not really used in English these days.) Of course they could not understand it so they and their classmates just translated most of it into Italian. It seemed like a huge waste of effort to me when what they should be doing at that age is absorbing modern day spoken and written English any way they can - TV, songs, conversation etc.