Ooooh...I wouldn't touch this one with a ten-foot epidural (not that I could easily find even a normal-sized one in southern Italy judging from the pregnancy and birth thread)!

Have at it ladies!

I know a few people here who have worked up until late during the pregnancy and also a few who have taken the whole pregnancy off.

That said, I really don't think that Italian employers can say they are not taking any women on incase they take time off for pregnancy. Just as an employer in London could not avoid hiring women as they too will probably end up taking time off due to pregnancy - be it the entire 9months or less.

Another difference between UK and Italy that I've noticed, is that after the birth, Italian mothers (irrelevant of time taken off during the pregnancy) tend to return full time to work (after a year normally), where as in England mothers will go part time for years after, or even leave the job. It's harder for Italian mothers to do this as jobs are too rare here.

I guess you’re right there – in the UK we have more flexible working available to us. I wasn’t seeking to criticise pregnant women (I’d love to be one myself one day) but I just had to say that I found these women’s attitudes towards their datori a little disturbing, and I couldn’t see myself behaving that way. I feel bad if I even take a day off sick. They just seemed to be milking the system. I guess in a big firm the employers don’t care, but this sort of attitude could sink a smaller business who maybe could not afford to pay 2 salaries (one to the pregnant employee and one to their replacement). It seems hard enough to get a small business started without this. I know that in the UK pregnant women are equally protected (from redundancy etc), but I don’t think UK doctors sign off women willy-nilly from the start of their pregnancies unless there is a genuine reason.

This is actually quite widespread - women taking the pregnancy off thanks to the doctor's note. It is probably also due to many Italian women waiting until their 30s to have children and then those pregnancies are classified "high risk," allowing women to stay at home even if they really technically have no need to. It's the same old situation - the "haves" (those with jobs with real contracts) ruining it for the "have nots" (those with no contract and no chance for a contract because, in part, employers are terrified of the fannulloni). There needs to be some happy medium between the "precari" and the "iper garantiti" but I don't see the government offering up any solutions. I don't know the situation in the UK but in the U.S. an 8-month-pregnant woman can look for and feasibly find a job. It is laughable to think that could happen here. And here they put age requirements in the ads - just try finding something these days for anyone but a "max 30 anni." Fortunately I'm able to get by doing freelance but I have been assiduously looking for a real full-time job since April and am not even getting responses to my CV. I think it has a lot to do with my age and sex.
Michelle

I think this all goes back to whether you have a permanent contract or not. If you are a younger woman and only have a contratto a progetto (like me!) then you don't get paid maternity leave anyway and your employer can fire you at any time. Unfortunately, if you have a permanent contract, on the other hand, it's nearly impossible for an employer to fire you, no matter what your attitude, so there is little fear of losing one's job and an attitude to work which matches. I think the real crime here is the all or nothing attitude to work security and maternity leave.

That said, I do not like the US style "at will" employment system at all - I think that there has to be a real reason to let someone go. But faking problems in pregnancy in order to avoid work seems like a pretty good indicator of a lazy work attitude!

I personally have never seen anybody let go in the U.S. for no reason. It's such a litigious society, that'd be next to impossible. Any American let go for "no reason" would sue in a heartbeat. People need to be given several warnings and it all has to be well documented (am talking "fired" here not "laid off"), etc. The U.S. system has problems. I agree. But at least it works meritocratically - you work, you move ahead. You don't work, they send you home. Yes, the vacation time and maternity leave are pitiful and there's plenty you can say about that. But I prefer working there. I don't know - maybe it's a matter of what you are used to but I can't seem to operate in this system, and I'm talking about even when I was hired. I was hoping Prodi would come in and make some sweeping changes but I'm not seeing that happening.
Michelle

My former boss in the US was fired for no reason and with no warnings (she was given 20 minutes to gather her things and go) after 10 years of service. I was quite shocked. She was a single mother too. I think they fired her because new management just didn't like her that much personality wise - she was doing a great job in everyone else's opinion.

I agree though that working here is very weird. Getting in late, leaving early, chit chatting all the time etc all seem to be ok here. It's definitely not what I'm used to.

quote:

If you are a younger woman and only have a contratto a progetto (like me!) then you don't get paid maternity leave

I heard that some kind of maternity leave was available also on the contratto a progetto. Perhaps something to look into...

Getting slightly (or a lot) for a moment...I agree that America is a litigious society (who wouldn't?), but in reality, the majority of employees in the United States are "at-will" and can, indeed, be fired for "no reason." Anyone without a contract is an at-will employee.

Lawsuits happen when the person fired is a woman, minority, or in another protected classification, who may be able to claim a pretext for their dismissal--but even then, the employer must fall under the requirements (such as having x number of employees) of Title VII (the anti-discrimination provision) or be a governmental office. Otherwise the employee has no recourse.

That said, keep in mind that "insubordination" or "poor work performance" are perfectly valid reasons to dismiss an employee, and a cynical mind (like mine) could think of many ways that an employer could create such a situation, effectively getting around the usual "at-will" rules.

My only point is that United States law itself actually doesn't protect the average worker very much regarding dismissal (outside of anti-discrimination legislation), and you won't see many lawsuits for run-of-the-mill firings. Why? Again thinking cynically, without some sort of discrimination claim, there's just not enough money in it for lawyers. We'd be talking about low-level workers (higher levels are usually under contract) who would get small monetary settlements even if they did "win." And for the worker, he or she still most likely wouldn't have a job. All in all, these aren't the lawsuits that make the news.

But back to Italy..........

I live in Maryland which, like many states, has "at will" employment. My understanding is that those without contracts stating otherwise (e.g., union members, etc) can be let go for any reason or no reason as long as the employer does not engage in discrimination or violate public policy (e.g., fire you for refusing to commit an illegal act). If you are terminated you can bring suit but it costs $ to do this and you may well lose. One of my relatives works for a company with about 2000 employees and high turnover. They sack an employee each week.

When I was at HP, a colleague of mine got fired with 30 minutes to clear his desk, etc. at a time when things like that didn't happen (yet). He was given "inappropriate use of email" as a reason in a form letter. No other details were given or required.

Firing someone without a good reason is easier to do than you would think. A case of discrimination is the only case that can win in these appeals, and it's very difficult, expensive and hard to prove. A lawyer advised him against pursuing it.

Here in Italy they do something similar when there are "behavioral differences" and you have a permanent contract...it's called "mobbing." Definitely illegal, also harder to prove, and in many cases, much more damaging to the individual who may have no other job opportunities.

quote:

Originally posted by testa dura:
That said, keep in mind that "insubordination" or "poor work performance" are perfectly valid reasons to dismiss an employee, and a cynical mind (like mine) could think of many ways that an employer could create such a situation, effectively getting around the usual "at-will" rules.

This also happens in Italy. According to the lwa, in Italy an employed can be fired with "giusta causa" if he or she does not comply with the job requirements, is late, does not execute etc. In such cases, the worker must receive three different reprimends for individual cases, anbd the thrid implies that he or she can be fired. What happens quite often is that the worker receives two such letters soon after being hired, so that one more letter is enough to have him or her fired.

A friend of mine's story is that she was hired by a company and in the first two months she received one "richiamo" for a two minutes delay on finishing a job assignment, and the other for making a mistake reproducing a logo, but the original she was given had the same mistake too.
After the second letter, she did not receive any other for several years, until the management decided to fire her (essentially because they had found someone who would take up the job for less money) and decided to fire her for the one real mistake she had done. They sent her a third letter and fired her.
She has now started a lawsuit based on the fact that the first two letters were sent with no real cause.

I think the generous terms of maternity leave here in Italy definitely do have a negative impact on the hiring of women. I did my MBA here in Italy and even the brightest Italian women had difficulty with recruitment (all the men, even the slowest, were snatched up quickly) and were often asked (illegally) about their plans for children. I do see the other side, however, between doctors' notes and 6 months maternity leave and another 6 months at partial pay, many women are away for 2 years. And dr notes are very easy to obtain. I did it, too, but in the reverse. I didn't want to waste mandatory maternity leave before the birth, so for both of my pregnancies I asked my Dr. to fudge the due date (having informed my boss, who was more than happy with my choice) and worked through the days I went into labor, thereby saving all my time for afterwards. My dr said he rarely gets requests for that type of fictional note.

I am afraid we are getting away from Cassi's request for assistance, however. Cassi - don't be too hard on yourself. Motherhood is a big adjustment. Not only do you have the needs of an infant, but now you are adjusting to a new city (even if you have been here before, your needs are different now that you are a mom). However, don't be too hasty to hate it here. There is no point in comparing Rome to America as far as organization is concerned and the Roman transport is dismal, but there are so many advantages to raising children in Rome. Even if you are only staying for a few years, your child will have the chance to grow up in a different culture and to become bilingual, experiences which will only be positive upon your return. Personally, there are a lot of things that I dislike about child-rearing in the States (ultra-competitive parents, overprogramed kids, kids who need to watch DVDs in the mini-van, junk food in school cafeterias - believe me, the school menus alone make living in Italy worth it). Get involved with the playgroups on Via Babuina and the American Women's Club, take out your carrier and find the most direct buses near you (find the closest "Xpres" or "urbana", like the 60) and ride them outside of rush hour. Don't worry about nursing on the run. It is completely acceptable here and you can find a quiet corner in the park (bring along a shawl if you want, but lots of moms do it). And start chatting with all the moms in the parks - Italians are so sociable, and they want to find playmates for their children (even infants). They are also curious about foreign moms here. It does take time to adjust, but it will get easier and soon you will be giving the advice to the new moms in difficulty.

Thanks, Kimberly, for your encouragement! I agree that there are many things about raising kids in America that are just plain stupid. i.e. DVD player in the back seat, junk food, competitiveness. But there are also stupid things here. I've encountered several stupid things. It's just how you decide to raise your kids, I think. I would never get a DVD player in my van, infact we don't have cable television in the house as we avoid watching it anyways. I don't like my kids to be exposed to sex and seductivity at such early years. I think it steals away innocence.

I'm very interested in the play group on via babuino. Does it matter if I'm not Anglican? I also was hoping to look into the La Leche League here to see how that goes.

About the whole maternity leave issue in Italy, my husband and I debate about this all the time. His sister has been waiting for two years in order to get married because she wants her contratto a tempo indeterminato. They have been playing games with her all this time though in fear that she will go off and have babies. I think that is totally wrong for an employer to delve into such personal details of your life but I also think it is these women that get doctors notes to stay home that ruin it for everyone else. I have never experienced such descrimination towards women before in my life. I think the government needs to change things. I don't know how, but as my husband see's it, a business can't be worrying about having to pay two people when they hire one person and a woman can't be worried about how they're going to afford to get married if they don't find a job!

I'm not condoning the "at will" firing in America, but atleast if you lose your job, there are tons available still. It may not be doing the exact same thing the person was previusly doing, but atleast it would be respectable.

quote:

His sister has been waiting for two years in order to get married because she wants her contratto a tempo indeterminato.

I don't get this bit...Are they waiting to get married because they assume that once married a baby is soon on the way? Why 2 years?

Sorry, I'll make myself clearer! His sister has been working for the same large company for two years now. Each year they say that next year they will give her a permanent contract but instead they give her a temporary one. They do this because they are afraid she will get married and get pregnant right away once they do(which actually is true...the only reason they are waiting to get married is to be sure that she will have a permanent position.) Her boss has even quasi threatened her...saying that they've had too many women get hired permanently and then right away afterwards they are on maternity leave and the company is stuck finding a new hire while she is gone. I can understand the company but at the same time this makes it extremely difficult for women to find a position.

On the other hand, the only reason people don't hesitate to hire pregnant women in the U.S. is because they're only given 3 months pregnancy leave. That's really not much compared to many women here taking atleast six months off.

Dn't forget that the expense for the materenity leave is supported by the pension funds institutions. Essentially, the reason the "ownewrs" don't want to hire women who may get pregnant is that they would not be able to fire them in the next two years.

Cassi - there are LLL meetings in English on the first Monday of the month at Il Nido/The Birth Center which I had mentioned previously. Unfortunately, you just missed the one for Oct. The next meeting is on 6 Nov. There are no problems with breastfeeding in public here. If you are uncomfortable about it you can drape yourself with a small blanket. I can't emphasize enough how you have to make yourself get out there with your baby. Believe me, I know how it is - the feeling of being trapped is very strong and hard to break. I had difficulties after my first child feeling that to leave the house was just too much bother. Now with number three, it's been a lot easier - I am also motivated by the needs/desires of two other little ones! Life in Rome with children is very hard. If we weren't tied here by our business, I would look for somewhere else in Italy to live. I've tried to find a smaller, progressive town here, but it doesn't seem to exist.

Re: women getting signed off during pregancy. From my experience it is usually only done by people who either a) have a genuine reason or b) have a grudge against work and feel that this time off is their right for putting up with so much from their employers. Personally I worked right through my pregnancy (and also through some of my maternity leave due to a misunderstanding on my part ). However, as I have a 90 minute commute to work I found this pretty tiring ... it was only the fact that I didn't want to be sidelined and was anxious to finish my assigned projects that meant that I continued. However, I have been asking for a transfer closer to home and they still haven't given it so I might not be so amenable next time!!

Hi Cassi,

You had asked about the group on Via Babuino. To answer your question: no, you definitely don't have to be Anglican. The next meeting is next Wednesday morning. I agree with Linda - get out there! Once you start meeting other moms, you will feel a lot more at home in this city. Also try taking a look at your local pool. I took my oldest to "Baby nuoto" classes, starting from 4 months, and it was another fun way to meet moms and babies and infants love splashing around in the water. The Nido on Via Marmorata 169 which Linda mentioned also has weekly English-speaking mommy-baby get-togethers, in addition to monthly La Leche meetings (06/57300707).