i am having a hard time dealing with how to judge italians. i realize now, that our culture teaches us how to judge people, and after time, we are so good at it, we can quickly and easily make judgements. but, ive only been in roma for 1 year. and its hard to judge people. the nasty italians seem worse than the new york ones, only because its a new culture for me, i know this. but its still hard, trying to create new relationships without having something to fall back on, a way of judging, and just not being used to the culture. i was wondering if anyone, not italian could relate.
Posts: 36 | Location (City & State): new york | Registered: 16 April 2006
Originally posted by Bill 2: Why not use this opportunity to stop judging people?
because i think that is impossible, people use judgements for important reasons, they need to make decisions, judgements are not bad, they are normal and useful. people use judgements in every way every day. i guess you dont relate.
Posts: 36 | Location (City & State): new york | Registered: 16 April 2006
Originally posted by cobalt: Judging how, though? I agree with Bill, maybe stop trying! Give everyone a chance until proven otherwise.
well, what i mean is, you can tell when you meet someone that is kind, that they are a nice person, well, when a person is in another culture, you can misinterpret things. so its harder really for you to judge the person based on what you think, because what you think is hightly influenced by the culture you grew up in. again though, you are not relating i guess.
Posts: 36 | Location (City & State): new york | Registered: 16 April 2006
I have just the opposite feeling where I can't think of anyone I've met here as "nasty." Perhaps it's your disposition that automatically puts people in their place.
I think the reason no one relates to what you said is because no one else feels that negatively towards Italians.
Also, Rome is not a good city to base a judgment of Italians. In big cities they are much more closed off and snobbish (all over the world). Spend some time in the smaller cities and country and your opinion should change. If not, it's not the Italians that are the problem...
Beyond the fact that in Rome the people you are "judging" might not even be Italian at all. They might be (gasp) foreigners like you, creating even more cultural judgement barriers! What a world.
Posts: 392 | Location (City & State): Firenze | Registered: 29 September 2006
Originally posted by romadonna: well, what i mean is, you can tell when you meet someone that is kind, that they are a nice person, well, when a person is in another culture, you can misinterpret things.
Maybe, interpreting what you are saying, your problem is not so much with judging people as with evaluating people?
Hard luck Romadonna. I think you were probably talking about weighing people up but, this being a very PC place, you hit the wrong spot with THAT word.
I find the same as you. In particular I don't think a smile or a promise mean quite the same here as I'm used to. On the other hand I heard of an Italian girl going to London and complaining "They call you love but they don't mean it".
Posts: 18 | Location (City & State): Milano Lombardia | Registered: 02 April 2005
Originally posted by Stokies: Hard luck Romadonna. I think you were probably talking about weighing people up but, this being a very PC place, you hit the wrong spot with THAT word.
Amen. Did people really not understand what she was talking about?
Posts: 509 | Location (City & State): Brooklyn, NY | Registered: 03 December 2006
They normally work for me, and I occasionally ignore them at my peril.
There's only one person here I've ever had a problem with and if I ever see the guy who stole my purse (and a number of others') I may demonstrate my soccer skills where it hurts him.
Posts: 719 | Location (City & State): Valle d'Aosta | Registered: 24 November 2005
I agree that the term "judging" is loaded, but as a few have suggested, the underlying point was how to size up or evaluate people -- which needn't have sinister, non-pc overtones.
"Instinct" is precisely what the original poster was referring to, no? An enormous part of instinct is culturally determined. It's the tiny verbal and gestural cues that we usually don't have to think about at home that are so hard to master as an ex-pat. It's the mortar that holds together the bricks of language, which is itself no picnic to fully master.
Here's the sort of situation I have in mind. I have a hard time demanding attention from baristi in Italy because I'm used to being invited to order. My instincts tell me it's rude to barge into a barista's conversation with someone else, and that it's rude for them to leave me standing there "obviously" waiting to be served. Even now, when I *know* that things operate differently there, I still get a visceral reaction as if I'm being rebuffed. It's darn hard to retrain your instincts.
Is that the sort of what you were getting at, Romadonna? Haven't we seen a lot of qeustion about that sort of thing -- like oncoming pedestrians not budging an inch to allow one to pass?
Posts: 19 | Location (City & State): Chicago, IL | Registered: 15 June 2007
I understand what you're talking about, and as the last few posts have mentioned, its more about how to evaluate people.
There is nothing wrong with this, everyone does this all day long, and it doesnt (IMO) have any negative connotations with it.
For example, where I grew up if you walked by someone on the street you didnt know, then you didnt say anything to them. In Italy, when people I passed on the street would say hello, I'd always be a little taken aback, wondering if I had met them somewhere, or what they wanted from me. I was trying to 'seize them up' as I would have back home had someone done that. I eventually got used to it and started doing so myself. It's just part of the culture to greet people, no strings attached. When I moved too Virgina, it was the same way there, people said hello. Then I moved back to Oregon, and my first day back Im walking to get coffee. Pass someone on the street, say hello, and imediately they take a step to the side further away from me, and start looking at me wondering what I want, and 'seizing me up' - Just as I used to do.
As Shawn Marie said, its hard to retrain your insticts, and I think it just takes time and effort.
I'm sorry that your post was received so poorly. I think that I understand what you were trying to say. It can be difficult to make friends when you are uncertain about these things.
Greeting a stranger in the street in Milan would invoke one of three responses: 1. The person would carefully inspect you to see if you had any visible signs of being crazy 2. They would cross to the other side of the street 3. Swear at you
The only 'greetings' I ever get from strangers are honks, whistles and shouts from men. No friendly 'hello's' here.
I was saying to a friend the other day that the thing I miss THE MOST is common courtesy; especially from other people who you don't necessarily know. Good service with a heartfelt smile, a passing hello, etc. I cannot remember the last time someone smiled at me here just because.
Last time I went home and I was in a coffee shop the counter lady (a visible minority immigrant with broken english) was so nice to me, I teared up. I was so proud to have such good service and to see her working so hard and making a better life for herself.
Cultural differences can be hard to work through, especially when you're looking for close friends who you can share your experiences with. Of course, our view on life is largely shaped by our values and beliefs, and it's hard to really share experiences sometimes with people who have such different upbringings. I think that's part of the reason why immigrants group together when they are in foreign places.
Try to relate, change your habits, try to get into the minds of italians to really understand them.
It's not easy, but it does get easier as time goes along. Good luck!
Posts: 83 | Location (City & State): Milano area | Registered: 18 January 2007
Originally posted by Lori: It's just part of the culture to greet people, no strings attached.
Ummm, not in the big Italian cities, it's not. I don't think this is an Italy vs US thing but rather a city vs country thing.
Umm actually, hate to disagree with you and TiffanyLynn on this one, but in all 3 neighborhoods where I lived in Milano, people said hello - not everyone mind you. Most of the foreigners didnt. But almost all of the 30year+ italians did everytime, and I never got a creepy feeling from it there.
So perhaps its more the neighborhood, or the way you carry yourself - perhaps they look at you and decide not to say hello. But it's not a 'big city' thing.
I've never been to Milan but in Esquilino, where I live in Rome, you only say hello to people you know unless you're a man saying "ciao bella" or something more x-rated/neanderthal to a woman on the street. I get plenty of the ciao bella/neanderthal/x-rated comments from men but never in all the time I've lived here has a single woman who I don't know greeted me on the street.
oh, there are plenty of those in milan as well (and every other italian city)- dont get me wrong! Perhaps its just the neighborhood that you live in? I havent spent much time in Rome at all, only a few days so I dont know the city.
