....is a disappointment halved?

I am writing this because I am looking for some reassurance that 'it is not just me'. Let me explain. My boyfriend and I went to Rome for the weekend and along with thousands of other visitors visited St Peter's and the Vatican City. We arrived at St Peter's to find the queue stretching most of the way around the piazza. However the line moved quickly and in 20mins we were at the point where the wooden barriers start to filter you into the security lines. At this point a group of about 10 people marched across the piazza and pushed in the queue in front of us. We of course challenged them along with a number of other people around us in various languages and degrees of annoyance. The group totally ignored the protests, refused to make eye contact with the protesters and continued to push through towards the entrance. Now is this me or is this a very sad fact of life? I am not sure what nationality or religion they were (but this should in any case be irrelevant) but what made these people think they were better than the thousands of other people waiting in the line. I have to say we were very upset by this whole affair and it spoilt our visit to have our faith in humanity dashed in such a holy place! Or is it just me.....?

Apart from that Rome was fantastic!

Ceri

Welcome to Italy, land of "no manners!" When you've lived in the states and then come here to live (or visit in your case), people's manners are the first thing to stick out like a sore throbbing thumb! I deal with line cutters practically every time I go out! And ya know what, it doesn't even start at the destination I am going to, but rather on the streets as I am driving because some people feel they are too important to wait 4 red lights and they drive in the oncomming traffic's lane practically running those people off the road... but that's a whole other can of worms! lol
All the yelling in the world will not do a thing. Next time (if there is one), I say get in their face... there's no way they can't acknowlede you then.

Giulia

quote:

Originally posted by Ggriv77:
Welcome to Italy, land of "no manners!"

WOW

Please please please try to refrain from generalisations Giulia. Just because the manners are different than where you come from doesn't mean that they're worse, just that they are different.

quote:

Originally posted by Alessandra Federici:

quote:

Originally posted by Ggriv77:
Welcome to Italy, land of "no manners!"

WOW

OK maybe that sounded a bit over the top. I aplogize if it sounded as though I was directing it towards all Italians (I wasn't). Hopefully I didn't discourage anyone from visiting this lovely land. Like I stated before, I have had my share of rude people on a daily basis and when I read about Ceri's experience, my blood started to boil! Sorry

quote:

Welcome to Italy, land of "no manners!"

I thought ceri said:

quote:

I am not sure what nationality or religion they were (but this should in any case be irrelevant)

They could be anything.

Dora

My mum came to visit recently and we were trying to walk through a busy piazza here. Mum was allowing everyone to go before her and so we weren't getting anywhere. I said "If you don't push forward you won't get anywhere" and she said "I know, I have to forget my manners" This made me laugh. It's true though. I don't like to say that I have forgot my manners, but it is true that you need to put them to one side sometimes in order to survive here!

I do think much of this is due to city living though. I'm quite sure that out of the cities people are more pleasant. This is the case in England and I think that Italy is no different. My sister just got back from a holiday in Barbados and she said the people there were much politer in comparison to the city folk in London.

You find people with Big Ones or Brass Ones no matter where you go, at least you weren't in line for the restroom.

quote:

at least you weren't in line for the restroom.

that would be the worst

quote:

Originally posted by Delina:
My sister just got back from a holiday in Barbados and she said the people there were much politer in comparison to the city folk in London.

As I was reading about your mum I was thinking how in London I always tell my son to stick his elbows out on Oxford St. - if he doesn't people just hack him to pieces, or they did, now he is nearly as tall as me they aren't quite so rude

We were ignored in preference to someone louder than us in a queue here in Florence the other day but I have been queue jumped in Spain and, let's be honest, I have probably used being english to my advantage in the UK, but only sometimes of course!

I'm sorry but I've travelled all over the world and I've been cut in front of in line by rude people in EVERY country I've ever visited. Yes here you have to make sure your place in line is firm but if someone cuts and you mention it at least the Italians have always said sorry and let you go by. I've had MANY more undesirable experiences in southern California.

Personal space here is much different. People are warmer, more touchy feely but also crowding as well.

I was just at the Vatican last month with my 89 year old visiting grandfather and watched many people, most from the US, try to play stupid and obivously cut in line. I spent 5 minutes getting really ticked off and then decided I wouldn't let it ruin my experience.

There are cruddy people in every country. We just have to work hard to not act cruddy in return!

This reminds me of midnight mass on Christmas Eve at St. Peters 3 years ago. Anyone tried that fun experience?

You need to show up at about 8pm so you can try to sweet talk the nuns into giving you their extra tickets. (My family was in town and we're a family of 6... it wasn't easy, but we managed it)

Then you just stand there in the cold with thousands of people crowded around you and you get much closer to complete strangers than you may have ever wanted to in your life.

At about 11:30 they open what my family and I now refer to as the "flood gates". I swear, it was complete chaos. Nuns trampling over old ladies trampling over tourists all trying to get the best seat in the house. My poor mother was yelling, "Stop running! Stop running!" in vain and even told the prestigious guards that they "should be ashamed of themsleves". Typical mom.

Even though I agree with others that I've seen less respect for lines in Italy than in the States, I think that St. Peter's square makes people from all over the world abandon their good sense and manners. Especially when a good view of the pope is involved.

It seems impossible to queue in line here.
I am amazed mysef. After spending a month in NY, I got nervous right when I came back to Malpensa. So I decided to queue in the "Non EU and all passport" line. The other two were not lines but a sort of S of noisy people. Obiuvsly nobody waited below the yellow line, people were leaning on the booth...

When I arrived at the police booth the police officer saw my Italian passport, lifted his head nd said "Ah, Buongiorno!" and i replied "Buongiorno". The I asked him a thing and he replied dandomi del TU and not using a really polite language.

And those are the people that should welcome visitors.

Let me weigh in with something just about every Italian is better at than many expats: being a guest in your home. When I have a party some expats sit and wait for people to come and entertain them, offer nothing, don't move and don't seem to understand that they are part of the entertainment. They soon get bored and leave. Some others find a congenial group and then never leave it, creating cliquish knots here and there.
Italians will move about, be curious, willing to talk about almost anything or even nothing, and seem to understand the theory.
Neither group is eager to show off their languages, but if they only try I'm happy.
I will not stereotype the two groups, because that would be untrue, but I never seem to find the Italians doing the "stay in a corner and wait to be amused" thing.

quote:

I will not stereotype the two groups

I think you just did.

Nope, I said some. And that's true. Some expats circulate really well and are very entertaining-- Barb and Art are real additions to parties, for example.
Some Italians are shy and hover but don't talk much.

quote:

When I arrived at the police booth the police officer saw my Italian passport, lifted his head nd said "Ah, Buongiorno!" and i replied "Buongiorno". The I asked him a thing and he replied dandomi del TU and not using a really polite language.

And those are the people that should welcome visitors.

I didn't receive a warm welcome from the police officer in Philadelphia either. He was nasty and suspicious and asked me tons of questions before letting me in, which he had to do anyway cause there was no reason to reject me. Maybe they are doing their job? They are not the tourist's "welcome committee", they are supposed to make sure that no potential "clandestino" gets in and that's what they do. Not to talk about how the "immigration" treats you here, but after all it's their job to keep illegal people out and they do it well. I just wish they did it as well in Italy.
As per your Italian officer I just think he was annoyed that you were in his line, giving him extra work when you could simply go to the much less crowded and faster "EU passports" one.

Dora

Dora,
I hope the people in Maryland are treating you better! When I moved to Pennsylvania I noticed that people weren't as friendly as people in Texas were where I grew up. It took me a long time to get used to that.

So far I have only had the chance to meet my neighbohors and some of Jim's co-workers and they have all been very nice and sweet to me, they also seem very curious about Italy and they want me to descrive it. I am sure that as soon as I will be able to work I will find a lot of new friends. Immigration is another story but hey, that's what they do right?

It might seem crazy but I am having trouble driving here, imagine someone that has never worried about the traffic lights, stop signs, or any of the rules and has always driven in the jungle of Naple's traffic that all of a sudden has to deal with all the traffic rules in the world!!! And I even have to respect them!!! Isn't it crazy? Good thing that my car is a very slow truck or I would be stopped continuously for passing the speed limit. In Italy I used to speed my little Fiat Panda up to 140 Km/h, some of my friends kept wondering how I could do it.

Besides the rules I also get lost often and have to make emergency calls to Jim's cell phone to be driven back home.
It's getting better though, and I've strated to drive here from day one, disregarding people yelling at me and calling me names and now they don't yell so much anymore . I am proud of myself!

Dora

quote:

Originally posted by Dora:
Maybe they are doing their job? They are not the tourist's "welcome committee", they are supposed to make sure that no potential "clandestino" gets in and that's what they do. Not to talk about how the "immigration" treats you here, but after all it's their job to keep illegal people out and they do it well. I just wish they did it as well in Italy.
As per your Italian officer I just think he was annoyed that you were in his line, giving him extra work when you could simply go to the much less crowded and faster "EU passports" one.

Dora

The EU passport queue is very crowded, indeed!
Plus, there is no difference between the lines for me, so I'd go for the one that stress me less

I was disappointed because I had a problem with the US Visa Waiver (they didn't tear off the receipt when I left the US) and asked for some help to the Italian police officer.
When he saw a 178cm tall, blonde, blue eyes girl who spoke Italian better than him called his colleague to watch me too. I felt like at the zoo, plus he replied me "Guarda non so dirti niente, chiama il consolato sennò mi sa che questi te la mettono nel c... la prossima volta che ci vai".

I know they cannot say that in English to tourists, thanks God!!

When I came back to Italy there was only me at the EU passports line and they were fast.

I think he really didn't know anything about your visa waiver stuff, he was the Italian officer not the american one, you were supposed to take care of it before you left and not when you arrived. They usually have people at the american airport handing the instructions of how to "sign out" of the country but they speak very fast and I kept wondering how someone that is not English mother language can understand them.

Dora

quote:

Originally posted by Judith in Umbria:
Barb and Art are real additions to parties, for example.

OH, you're only saying that because Art was the light (not life) of your last party! Please don't expect a repeat performance!!!

(For those of you who don't know, we attended at party at Judith's house last year. To create a festive mood, Judith had candles lit, and one such candle, on a wall sconce (hung a little too low) caught Art's shirt on fire! Luckily no serious damage was done, but we did have a few seconds of excitement!)

Edited to fix quote

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Barb (and Art),

I want to go to one of these parties!!! (minus the shirt burning)... where's the next one nearest to abruzzo??
As for line cutting, lack of manners etc. I have many stories to share however I have just learned to accept it as a part of living with the many other people in the world. I've found it takes more energy to get worked up about it than to just let it slide. Only thing that still bugs me is when Im on a bus or train and I see all the seats occupied, most by young able bodied people, and several older people (upwards of 70) standing and obviously not at ease. I have been known to suggest to someone young sitting down to give up their seat, and always with success.