from BBC:
A football fan has been shot dead by police during a fight between rival supporters in Italy, officials say.
Local authorities said there had been a "tragic error" when police intervened to quell violence between fans of Roman team Lazio and Turin-based Juventus.

The victim, a Lazio fan, was shot during the clash at a motorway rest stop near the Tuscan city of Arezzo.

The Lazio fans were travelling to a match against Inter Milan, which has been suspended following the death.

Other games were starting 10 minutes late with players and officials wearing black armbands.



The Juventus fans were reportedly on their way from Naples to an away match against Parma.

"It was a tragic error," said Arezzo police chief Vincenzo Giacobbe.

"Our agent had intervened to prevent the brawl between these two groups, who had not been identified as fans," Mr Giacobbe said, according to the Italian news agency Ansa.

The victim was identified as Gabriele Sandri, a 26-year-old disc jockey from Rome.

He was apparently shot while in a car outside the motorway restaurant.

Earlier reports said the fan had been killed during the brawl. An investigation is under way.

News of the violence sparked clashes between fans and police in Bergamo, where Atalanta were playing AC Milan.

That match was abandoned 10 minutes after kick-off, when fans tried to smash down a barrier and force their way onto the pitch.

In April the Italian government introduced a law aimed at stamping out football hooliganism.

It was enacted after a policeman was killed in rioting at a match in Sicily in February.

I would be ashamed to call myself an "ultra" of any team right now. I see the article is the most read on BBC and pretty high on CNN too. The saddest thing is how ultras all around the country have attacked police and police stations. It's ridiculous to say the least. I, for one, am not going to another game again, ever.
They even stopped the game in Taranto due to the fans. Another black eye for the sport they claim to love. I don't and I will never understand.


Jeffo

From watching the news yesterday, pretty much all day I have come to some harsh conclusions. First off this has nothing to do with tifosi. The people in the parking lot in front of the autogrill may have been fans going to a game but there was no brawl. The cops were across the street. Gabriele, the victim was asleep in the car between two other people. Why would the police shoot? How could the bullet hit him in the neck if the cop really shot the round in the air from across the street, etc.? They have done a silenzio stampa on all of the witnesses but from what they were able to say before, this was no accident.

The people who caused problems at the games should not have done that but after all of the problems with the crime rate going up and the cops not doing a damn thing but then they go and kill an innocent guy, people are fed up.

This is going to be hugely bad for the government, Amato and the police.

quote:

the crime rate going up and the cops not doing a damn thing but then they go and kill an innocent guy, people are fed up.

This is going to be hugely bad for the government, Amato and the police.

Just to get a jump on conspiracy theorists, "false flag"? Between this and the furor over immigrants, the right has lots of ammo now.

Football fan violence is a right vs left issue?

On the news this morning, they said it was a complete freak accident. The officer was on the other side of the highway at another Autogrill and shot once in the air as a 'warning,' which apparently he is allowed to do (though not sure if that is too prudent seeing how crowded with families, etc. Autogrills can be). Procedure calls for him to then put his gun in his holster and proceed to the scene. Where he screwed up (he says) was not putting the gun back in his holster but running with the gun in his hand. It went off accidentally and hit the Lazio fan, who was in the car with his friends (and talk about 'sfiga' - the guy was in the middle seat in the back between two people). The officer could have hit anybody - it just happened to be a football fan.
Michelle

The images on TV this morning of "fans" on a rampage in Rome are very bad.

"Police chiefs, politicians and football administrators will be meeting on Monday to seek to limit the damage from the weekend's incidents."

quote:

Originally posted by mschoen:
The officer could have hit anybody - it just happened to be a football fan.
Michelle

Thanks for that Michelle. Here's hoping cooler heads prevail. The rival football team isn't at fault, the police in general aren't at fault. The negligent officer should be disciplined. Everyone go home and chill.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Bill 2,

in my opinion i find appalling that the people rioting outside the police stations are now branded as "terrorists".
what will be the next step? revolutionaries?

Actually, the "terrorist", as it is stated by the Italian law (a country that has a good deal of experience regarding this issue, don't forget) says that is terriristic any action: «che possono arrecare grave danno a un Paese e sono compiute allo scopo di intimidire la popolazione o costringere i poteri pubblici a compiere o astenersi dal compiere un qualsiasi atto o destabilizzare o distruggere le strutture politiche fondamentali, costituzionali, economiche e sociali di un Paese» (which may case important damage to a country, which are enacted with the goal to intimidate the population or force the public powers to put forth or avoid putting forth any act or to unbalance or destry the essential political, constitutional, economic, and social structures of a country). Which is exactly twhat happened yesterday in Rome. Notice that this law is being pplied only to the Roman "ultras" that attacked police stations and the seat of the CONI, the Italian Olympic committee. it does not absolutely apply, for instnace, to the Milanese and Bergamasco "ultras" that organized a march that, while certainly not peaceful, did not attack directly similar structures.

so all violent demonstrations are basically acts of terrorism in your opinion?
i don't think violence is the way but i still regard terrorism as something very different from the recent events. something like brigate rosse or those who knocked down the twin towers deserve the name.
why is the death of a policeman worth suspending all matches and the death of a supporter isn't?
THIS is an act that can seriously unbalance the constitutional structure of italy.

I agree with Alice that an organized attack against several police stations might be considered terrorism as it was previously defined.
Maybe a bit of an exaggeration... I heard that those hoolingans were also shouting fascist slogans, so they're thinking of charging them with apologia del fascismo too.

quote:

Originally posted by ollivander:
so all violent demonstrations are basically acts of terrorism in your opinion?

Actually, as a communist in a capitalist country, I think the opposite. But, you can't deny that what happened in Rome can be defined "terrorism" according to the definition offered by the law. That "I fought the law and the law won" is a completely different problem. I am not siding up with it, I am saying that once the law defines an act as "X", the state can only apply the law or change it. And apply it they are doing.

That quote is more than 30% of the original post!

Thats a slippery slope if we start slinging around the word 'terrorism' like its 'kleenix' regardless of what the definition is on the books. Pretty soon, everyone is labeled....

Law can be interpreted and I find this reading dangerously extreme.

Law is extreme and we are pretty used to see it applied in rather unconventioal ways. And when this is impossible, the law s just get changed. This country lives on "emergencies" that produce extreme laws that never get deleted, I will tell you my opinion: a few more decades of these emergencies and Italy will be back to fascism without anyone noticing the transition.

I hesitate to involve myself (a Brit in Italy)in this discussion....but: the start of this was (I precis) a young hotheaded Polstrad (traffic cop) making a tragic error and shooting across a motorway a perfectly innocent - in fact asleep - football fan. (According to all press reports).

As always in Italy, news, accusations and counter accusations come out slowly, which perhaps explains the mindless violence wreaked in Rome against the police stations. Personally I believe to charge the perpetrators of these attacks wth 'terrorism' is entirely reasonable.

I also think it was extraordinarily melodramatic to stop other football matches, both on Sunday and, it now seems, for a longer period. The incident was a ghastly accident, and the policeman who fired so impetuously will be charged with manslaughter - but it has (IMO) nothing to do with football or with extreme politics.

It does have something to do with how the Italian populus regard the forces of law and order, and that IS a important political question: I really hope that it can be discussed without resorting to accusations of fascism or communism.

quote:

the start of this was (I precis) a young hotheaded Polstrad (traffic cop) making a tragic error and shooting across a motorway a perfectly innocent - in fact asleep - football fan. (According to all press reports

Actually the report Michelle cited said "The officer was on the other side of the highway at another Autogrill and shot once in the air as a 'warning,' which apparently he is allowed to do (though not sure if that is too prudent seeing how crowded with families, etc. Autogrills can be). Procedure calls for him to then put his gun in his holster and proceed to the scene. Where he screwed up (he says) was not putting the gun back in his holster but running with the gun in his hand. It went off accidentally and hit the Lazio fan, who was in the car with his friends (and talk about 'sfiga' - the guy was in the middle seat in the back between two people). The officer could have hit anybody - it just happened to be a football fan."
This is quite different than intentionally shooting across a highway at someone. It's definitely negligent, but I don't see "hotheaded".

Last night more eyewitnesses came out and said that the the cop took a shooting stance and fired. He is also a sharp shooter. They have also arrested the 4 friends of Gabriele and have found a witness who says there was a gun fight (although this witness refused to be shown on TV)

quote:

It does have something to do with how the Italian populus regard the forces of law and order,

That's to say me?

Chia

quote:

Originally posted by Cristina:
Last night more eyewitnesses came out and said that the the cop took a shooting stance and fired.

That accords with the graphics in yesterday's Repubblica which shows the fatal shot fired from a fixed position at the fence bordering the freeway. There was also a photo of a couple of investigators re-enacting the shooting position beside the fence.

I have to say that I agree with Relaxed that I find it odd that matches have been cancelled. Whilst it doesn't happen often, there have been the occasional deaths at football matches in the UK where a fan has been stabbed. Matches don't get cancelled. Perhaps 2 mins silence beforehand, but nothing more.

Personally I think the fact that he was a tifosi is irrelevant - he was a person. It shouldn't be more - or less - important that he was a football fan, surely?

Talking with Italian friends in London Monday night they all said it brought shame on Italy and were very disappointed about the rioting.

Before anyone says that the UK is not perfect, I agree. After all, our forces of law and order shot an innocent man (Jean Charles de Menedeze) thinking he was a terrorist. The difference is that we didn't go out rioting and attacking police stations afterwards. Not even the Brazilian community did that. Complaints were made peacefully and resulted in a legal ruling that the police were at fault. Surely this is a better way to handle things - look for justice for the dead man rather than rioting?