quote:

I am going with Filomena on this one, lesson: if you make a habit of pointing out potential hypocrisy all time then you must be prepared for the backlash-

Yet another inability to distinguish the literal from the tongue in cheek. I blame the media for this syndrome. All those sitcoms with laugh tracks cueing the audience which lines are straight and which are joking. After a few years people loose the ability to distinguish without the cues. Tragic, really.

Leave us retirees alone!!!

Exactly!

quote:

Originally posted by Carole B.:
But that means I don't get to the "handbags at dawn" scenario if it was me in the wrong and because I don't have a sense of humour...

I'd have to concede victory in a handbag fight to you Carole. I haven't yet crossed-over to the male-purse look.

Jenna, your post made me smile, remembering my Grandma who would smack anyone in her way on the bus with her cane. Ever been in Fairway in NY on a Saturday morning?? Same story, big time! My godmother here in Torino is 72, diminuitive and dainty, but has the strongest and sharpest elbow in town and will push to the head of any line. I call it "il gomito Piemontese". You'll find more of those here when you arrive.....we can only laugh!

Well, I guess I'm the one to apologise for this: I haven't been a member of this forum long enough to be acquainted with Bill's wacko sense of humour.

So, rules are: Bill makes an outrageous remark and, hey, he's only funnin', anyone else try it and everyone here (starting with Bill himself I daresay) would be on them like a duck on a junebug.

Always good to know these things.

And, by the way, Bill, I certainly can laugh without being told it's time to, so please dampen the patronising, cheers! It's hard to know in print when a remark is meant to be funny, so when suggesting cracking an old man's head with his own cane didn't elicit a belly laugh, I can only say sorry (maybe you're right, I should watch more Laurel and Hardy).

As The Moderator said,

quote:

Lighten up, ok?

Bill, you are priceless! No wonder they love you here! I haven't had such a good laugh in ages!!!

quote:

So, rules are: Bill makes an outrageous remark and, hey, he's only funnin', anyone else try it and everyone here (starting with Bill himself I daresay) would be on them like a duck on a junebug.

Always good to know these things.

Um... let's put it like this: Noone gets away with everything. Ok?

Now, I would love to see that this discussion either gets back on topic (politeness in Italy) or stops completely.

Before it goes back on topic Annika, can I just say - OMG, what did I start when I told my story about being hit by a stick weilding pensioner! I know it is difficult to distinguish humour from seriousness online but I honestly cannot see how anyone would have taken Bill's remark seriously! It was funny, said with tongue firmly in cheek and in no way would it have made me go out and bash an old man! The old man in question was just a bad tempered old git who I would have freely allowed on the bus before me, had he been there before I started getting on the bus. He wasn't, he appeared when I was getting on the bus and whacked me on the shin. But hey, I said nothing because he was elderly.

Anyway, back to the original topic I think

quote:

Anyway, back to the original topic I think

Which was?????


Ah but wait a minute - now I remember ... it was about being polite -

and it was MY thread in the first place!

In Venice the old people tend to be godawful. They don't hesitate to cut in line (and when you dare to say something to them about it they turn on you like the yippy, little rat-dogs they so often own, rather than just sheepishly apologize and move to the back of the line). My wife's even seen one give a shove to a tourist who was getting off the waterbus too slowly for the old fellow's taste.

What's more, they litter when a garbage can is two feet away, toss trash out of their windows into canals (rather than go to the trouble of putting it out in the morning as they're supposed to) and let their dogs do their business everywhere (and yet they constantly complain about how the tourists supposedly dirty up the town). I've even seen a grandma have her grandson urinate on the street when there were plenty of cafés nearby where she could've taken him. What on earth was up with that?

Plus, forget about manners on the waterbus. A seat intended for three people very often has a cranky old Venetian sitting on the aisle who will only begrudgingly let you through to the window. And of course he/she can't actually deign to stand up to let you in, he/she just reluctantly swings his legs over and you have to clamber through without bumping said senior citizen.

Let it be stated that I am not referring to every single elderly Venetian. Some are respectful and kind. I am generalizing because it would be damn hard to get through life (or at least offer an opinion) if we had to consider every single case, permutation and/or exception. If I've offended any Italians, I would remind them that this website's called Expats in Italy, not Italians Who Want to Practice Their English. So, if they choose to view this site, I believe they have to be willing to bear foreigners' venting about certain things in Italy without getting their feathers all ruffled. If an Italian Expats in America site existed, I'm sure they'd do their share of kvetching too, and I wouldn't begrudge them the pleasure one bit.
Thank you very much. That's the end of my rant.

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If I've offended any Italians, I would remind them that this website's called Expats in Italy, not Italians Who Want to Practice Their English.

What a hateful post!

The Italians who visit the site are an invaluable resource- they are knowledgable, offer keen insight into the Italian point of view on many topics, and incidentally, they speak/write English much better than most of us speak Italian.

We've already lost Italian members due to this sort of hate-speech. The board is a poorer place as a result. Please don't drive away any more of our Italiani!

Alpino,

I hope that you have read and understood the rules of this site!

I am not going to even comment on how many things were so wrong and mean about alpino71's post (yes, a very hateful post), but not only do some Italians visit this website, but some members are married to Italians, have Italian children... so, please apologize to the forum. And by the way, I think you may be the only one "offended" by non-native English speakers!

I have visited, lived in, married in, and loved Italy now for almost 50 years. During that time, like many here, I have come to appreciate and also to despair about the Italian culture. It is a glorious country to live in and its history is among the very best there is to enjoy anywhere in the World. But you just mustn't expect it to be 'like it is back home' - it's not and never will be. Living here can often be very frustrating for both Italians and 'incomers' - BUT - (there's always a but isn't there...) IMHO the nice things far outweigh those frustrations! I learned that early on in my association with Italy... try and change things if you can, and if you can't then accept them and get on with your life. Life is far too short to waste it on cranking up the personal bile against others, who often cannot understand why you don't like the way they behave. People like that are usually convinced that their behaviour is quite normal and it is YOU who is out of kilter. If you do try and give kindly advice or point out that there could possibly be a different way to behave and you will often alienate them and create an enemy for life....

But this isn't just Italy and Italians you know... intransigent, self centred bigots can be found anywhere in the world, fom Italy to Indonesia, Siam to Sweden, New Zealand to New Brunswick... Yet here on Expats in Italy we manage pretty well to live in harmony. We would all wish that Italy was Utopia - but it's not. Though for me it is as near to it as I have found on this earth, so I'll live with it 'warts and all' just because it IS Italy.

Bill, what are you talking about? It's not "hate speech" (what a PC campus kind of expression by the way) to pre-emptively warn Italians that on a thread like this one they might get offended because foreigners may say some things which are critical (even scathing) about their countries and mores. It seems to me that you're overreacting in much the same way that people did to your commenting (earlier in this thread) about hitting an old guy over the head with his cane.

Jenna, I'm not "offended" by non-native English speakers. Where can you quote that in my post? You ought not to make things up. I am Italian myself and I certainly feel that I haven't offended myself. Are you saying I'm not free on this forum to criticize my own country and the acts of some of my fellow countrymen? I daresay I haven't traumatized myself by pointing out certain things that are often thoroughly annoying about the conduct of old folks in Venice. Any sentient being who's lived in this town could certainly make similar observations to the ones I made. It's interesting that you refuse to say which things aren't actually true in the observations I made about how old people tend to behave in Venice. And rest assured that I will certainly never apologize to the forum for my post.

Carole, certainly the good far outweighs the bad here. Why else would one choose to live here? However, to assuage people's hypersensitivity, must I always give equal time to all the good things in Venice in every post where I criticize things? That'd be quite a lengthy post.

In a thread which is all about offering views on Italians' politeness, we should be able to call things as we see them. Otherwise, we'll all just say that everything and everybody in Italy is just hunky dory. That would be awfully boring, wouldn't it?

quote:

seems to me that you're overreacting in much the same way that people did to your commenting (earlier in this thread) about hitting an old guy over the head with his cane.

Are you saying your post was just a joke, as was my post about the old guy with the cane?

quote:

If I've offended any Italians, I would remind them that this website's called Expats in Italy, not Italians Who Want to Practice Their English.

No, I wasn't joking at all. All the things I mentioned are indeed aggravating in Venice.

Gil, am I in violation of the rules?

quote:

Originally posted by Gil:
Alpino,

I hope that you have read and understood the rules of this site!

quote:

Originally posted by alpino71:
No, I wasn't joking at all. All the things I mentioned are indeed aggravating in Venice.

Then your analogy with my joking post is off the mark.

Yours was a joke (though not a particularly funny one it must be said), while mine wasn't. Both, however, led to knee-jerk, hysterical overreactions. That was the analogy I was aiming for.

quote:

That was the analogy I was aiming for.

You may have been aiming but you missed by a mile. There's a difference between not getting a joke and disagreeing with someone's stated opinion.

For examples of the perspectives our Italian members provide see http://expattalk.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/6130081135/...200048745#6200048745

Okay, what can I say.

First, alpino, your comment

quote:

If I've offended any Italians, I would remind them that this website's called Expats in Italy, not Italians Who Want to Practice Their English.

crossed over the line. Italians have a right to defend the many comments that are stated here and as Bill has said having true Italians on this board is a HUGE help for us as it opens a window to infinite knowledge. Complaining about any place that we live is normal so why complain and then state in the middle what you stated. It is like you are testing to see what disruption you could cause which *CONGRATS * you were able to do.

You stated above that you are Italian but then why do you write what you wrote (quoted above) and why have you asked about spare change in shops on another thread?

Please read the rules of the forum that you agreed to if you haev any questions.

Now folks, back on subject (this means ignore all that has been said in the past 10 hours - i. e. do not try to get the last word in) or I delete and close the thread.

quote:

Now folks, back on subject (this means ignore all that has been said in the past 10 hours - i. e. do not try to get the last word in) or I delete and close the thread.

....