Okay, new cultural difference that I do not understand. This has been something that I have wondered about for years and it may be just here in Tuscany but who knows. Yesterday I had to take my oldest to the ER because she had been biten by a tick (zecca) and I could not get it out. GROSS!!!!! Anyway, so off we went at 8:30 last night. They send us to the pediatrioc area of the pronto soccorso and we wait. As we are waiting (me and my daughter) I look around and every other person is there with the entire family including grandparents. Most of the kids just had a fever or a cold so nothing life threatening. One of the children is a child who goes to school with my youngest. She was there with both of her parents as well as the neighbor who drove them (they do not have a car) and the whole family (including elderly mother) of the neighbor was there too. This was not just in the childrens area but also in the main waiting room. Entire families including neighbors and friends. This of couse causes huge problems because when there are 4 kids to be seen for example, and only 6 chairs in the wiating room for kids, the 20 extra people had to stand in the small room (filled with toys so there was no room to walk).

I also notice this phenomenon at the grocery store. No one goes alone. They all go with the entire family and what tends to happen is the little kids and the ancient grandparents end up blocking all the aisles so you can't get around.

Is there some reason why people can't do things alone here? Maybe it is my problem as I like to be alone and like to do things alone.

Well have to get to the pharmacy and get the mega dose of antibiotics for my daughter since the tick can cause infections. I wonder how many people will be there?

Cristina, it must be a regionale thing. I don't see whole family clans so much here. Yes, they will have a spouse or son/daughter with them maybe, but the rest of the crowd stays home. The only time I see the family out and about is vicanza (my elderly neighbors always go with children and nipoti on their settimana bianca) or sometimes on a festa.

I do see a bit of the clan action going on in this area. Rarely see anyone out and about alone. Even like at the grocery store, but is usually husband and wife, or grown children with their elderly parents. Seems as if is unheard of to do anything alone. The last time I was back in the States, my husband stayed here in Italy, he had a hard time being alone.
Ann
My Life in Italy

It must be a pronto soccorso thing. When I was in the pronto soccorso at a hospital here in Rome I noticed that everyone else had their entire extended family with them including ancient grandparents, small children and neighbours. It was a bit weird because most of them had a minor fever or had cut themselves or something. No idea why they had to bring the whole family - maybe it's like a family outing to the hospital or something...?

Very annoying. I can't say I've noticed it grocery shopping, but with the hospital my MIL ALWAYS wants to come with us even if we need something like a blood test done (we don't let her), and within the last year DH needed an MRI done and when it was over, there she was, unbeknownst to him, waiting in the waiting room. It must have something to do with the general clingy-ness of the families here.

vary annoying indeed, i can stand mum and a few friends but i luckily never had to see the whole family in hospital occasions, only at funerals... where it is a must.

I'm an Anglo loner, but I appreciate the closeness of Italian families. They care even when a little thing happens--it may not seem little to them if it requires hospital treatment. It may be inconvenient for others, but I like it, especially since I'm barely on speaking terms with my family of birth. Lack of family ties is a great problem in the USA. People divorce, marry, go off on their own before they know what the world's about. That's not good.

I agree Christine. I see these customs and feel I've missed something. I left home at 17, and except for a few visits, have been away for 30 years. My wife is my family now, and I actually feel closer to her Italian-American family than my own. But my Italian neighbors have very tight families with all 3 generations togther weekly, if not more often. How sweet!

Like Christina I'm an 'almost' Anglo loner too, in as much as I live alone.

During two recent 'longish' stays in hospitals here I was almost ready to 'pay' someone - anyone - to visit me. Everyone else usually had some visitors twice a day. I had to wait for the nearest family members to travel after work to see me. They often finished work at the same time as the visiting time. That meant waiting till the weekends. I couldn't wait I was almost going crazy fgeeling so 'isolated'. The nurses were very good and often we played cards through the vidsiting times.

So don't knock the habit of 'mass' family visits - or a bit of 'hand holding for any short visits for check-ups etc. In my experience it's better 'too many than 'not enough'!
Carole B.

quote:

Originally posted by mani doro:
How sweet!

How horrible when you live in it. How oppressive and suffocating.

I understand that it may feel oppressive and suffocating, yet, you could always find a way to avoid it. At least I could. Loneliness on the other hand is inescapable. They bring dogs now to nursing homes to cheer up the inmates. People don't bother to show up.

There is a wise medium, but families here in itlay seem not to know it, very often. At times you are required to give up your individuality and to totally conform to the family, theyir habits, even their ideas. Sometimes these families get to the point of refusing you the right to decide about your own private or working life. And if you don't give in, you are not just the odd one with unusual ideas, you are either the witch that will bring doom on herself and her closest relation, or someone to be ostracized.
I happened to fall into one of those families as an adult, I chose to ostracize them, but I have seen tha damages this attitude produced in the family's offspring.

I empathize Alice, the more I live in Italy the more I see the parameters of individuality highly controlled. While being an only child, I fully appreciate that sense of family that Italians maintain, but, as I have seen in a number of cases, loving arms can easily be used as a strangle hold to contain and manipulate offspring into what 'the family' considers acceptable. Doesn't allow for much growth creatively... and very little margin for error.

In case of children, think just about this.
Most of the time, the natural "nanny" of the kid is his granma. So if a child has to go to an hospital, granma comes too.
Matteo wanted Nonna when he had to do a little operation, last november.
Plus, family ties are usually thight. Not enough to strangle each individual of the family -if it does happen, this is not normal, Alice, it is not the rule. But But not even so loose to leave somebody that stays in a n hospital ALONE.
Till few years ago, the assistance of a relative was REQUIRED in hospitals, because nurses couldn't take care costantly of all. Need water? mom goes, instead of calling a nurse that probably has something else to do. This was part of FAMILY care. An old granpa probably would be too worried -and sometimes not able- to stay home alone, so you take him with you.

When I had my second child I was so happy that I instructed my family -and marino's and all our friends- NOT to show up any moment. See It is possible to stay alone. But when I thought that Marino was dying, I was SOOO happy that family -his or mine- and all friends would pass by, not making me, and mostly him, feel alone or abandoned.

Bardigiana. This controlling thing is becoming always less and less with the newer generations, and slowly but firmly the changing process has started.

So it is the Grandma who is nanny in Italy. I got this impression from my MIL's visit to us for the birth of our first child. I felt incredibly suffocated and like Grandma was looking for every opportunity to take baby away from me. (Granted it was the first week after baby's birth and I was a bit emotional too) But not just that, I felt like she didn't know much about newborns. She always had the same old stale tactic to try and calm the baby down and I started wondering how it was that she could have raised two kids and not have more idea's as to why baby was crying or how to calm her down?? I remembered my husband commenting on how his Grandpa was always watching him when he was little and so I put two and two together.

So, I'm not looking forward to living 3 blocks from his family when we move in a house that technically they own. Don't get me wrong, I love the Italian tightness of the family, but I am a little nervous about expectations from MIL. DH doesn't help either. His mother can do no wrong, which is also what I thought before she came to visit. My mother on the other hand was incredibly understanding that it was my babies first week of life and that I wanted and needed to work through things with her myself.

I dunno. Let's just say I'm nervous that I won't have any privacy...

Nice subject...
The souther you go the strongest are the family boundaries.
When you live in a small town where everybody knows everybody is very hard to have some privacy. This reflect on the partnership between you and your neighbourhood, relatives, friends. Since everyone knows a lot about you they feel involved, because Latin people are very emotional. Please note that I didn't say that they DO care, simply they like feeling emotions and then show up everytime that emotions is involved. It may be an accident, a chit-chat, a party, a family reunion,...

But family boundaries may be too tight, because it is very hard to do something against your relatives. If you depend too much on them, you won't be able to realized your own life without their approval.
For example, when I was a child my mom worked. Her MIL, my grandma from my father' side, didn't wanted that I had a babysitter. According to my grandma, since she was retired from work, I should have stayed at her house when my mom was at work.
That's useful to avoid to spend money for the kindergarden or the babysitter....but what happens the day you get in trouble with the MIL?
So my mom always refused to leave me at my grandma regularly.

My aunt, who is from Ghana, made a very big mistake. Since when she arrived to Italy she couldn't speak a word of Italian, she relied a lot on her MIL. Then her MIl had the keys of her house and came in also when nobody was at home. The MIL (which is my grandma from my mom side) went to her house and tidied, washed, cleaned, ironed....and of course put her hands everywhere: in the closet, in the fridge, in the stove, in everybox she could find.
The thing went on on and now my grandma goes at my aunt's and turn on-off the heating like if that is HER house.
My aunt goes crazy, in particular when my uncle is away from work and she doesn't want to hurt her MIL but cannot keep the things going.
So, I suggest to everyone to define very well their partnership with everyone in Italy before it's too late.
If you are an indipendent person and don't want anybody around it is not hard to set a limit.
But don't try to explain privacy to Italians, total waste of time.

Ultimately, that is the question with Italian family members... Where do you draw the line? Italians are intuitively nosey (even more so the further south you go in Italy), but still, a certain expectation of privacy is expected and a line has to be drawn somewhere...

If I caught any members of my Italian family going through my things in Italy, I'd have a very short and irate discussion with them about it. That's too much....

Ultimately if people respect each other, they will limit how far they might meddle in each other's business. Respect is supposed to be worth something in Italy, but not everyone agrees.

Well said, Pola and Roberto. Until this situation I had with my MIL, I looked at the Italian family through rose colored glasses. (I also don't want to talk down on them, cause American families have a thing or two to learn from Italian families as well.) I also never realized how much I like my privacy! My husband seems to understand that and support it, but we shall see. Any idea's as to how to stand my ground and also not be too on the defense all of the time?

My husband also couldn't wait to go to the families beach house this summer for several weeks. It is very small and the whole family goes. I cannot imagine being there for a couple of weeks as I make my transition to moving to Italy with a new baby, new life, new culture (well, for the second time around, anyways!). So we will be staying with them for a few days at best, though I would love to stay at the beach to escape the Rome heat, I just can't do it under the circumstances!

quote:

Originally posted by roberto75:
Ultimately, that is the question with Italian family members... Where do you draw the line?

Wherever you please. You'll need to explain calmly but firmly. Then you'll experience some stiff faces and a little resent, but after a while, it will work.

Fora year -years ago- my MIL wanted to come to my house to stay every week. I never had the courage to say no, but always used the excuse that we didn't have an extra bed. She SENDS A SOFA BED to my house, "so now you have it" point is she didn't mean to be mean. She did it because she thought that we needed an extra bed and that we would be happy about it. I didn't have the courage to say anythiung, so she started to come every 2 weeks for a week.
Untill... one day she calls and tells me that she is coming next day as usual. I tell her that she can't, because I was sending back to her the sofa. She goes nut and asks me why, I tell her BECAUSE it is my house and you cannot come everytime you please. This is suining my family life. And it was true.
She called my husband and he said that he agreed with me. She didn't speak to us for months, then called back one day and said the she understood, and since then it has been all fine. I put in and extra bedroom and now, around Christmas, she is always invited for few days, gladly.

We never had a problem with it. AGAIN.

You all need to learn to say no in Italian.

The first time you say no it's because you're too polite,shy or proud to take help.

The second time see #1

The third time see #1

The fourth time it's because you haven't understood the offer.

The fifth time it's because you're a little hard of hearing. Usually offer is made louder next time.

The sixth time they start wondering what's wrong with you.

The seventh time they start wondering if you really mean no.

The eight time they start figuring out excuses for why you might say no.

The ninth time they start to convincing themselves you really mean no.

The tenth time they realize that #1 was really the right one and it starts over.



Learn to say no and keep saying no.

That's hilarious, Nick! It reminds me of the first week we brought our little Francesca home. She, like pretty much any other newborn, had her nights and days confused. So, after a 22 hour labor and dealing with a new baby and not being able to sleep at night, I was exhausted! But I was determined to stick it through and be there with my baby the first week. That was my choice. I didn't want to just pass her off. One night, in the middle of the night, my MIL comes to me as I am trying to calm Francesca down and she offered to take the baby for the night so I could rest. It was a sweet offer, but, like I said, I was determined to spend her first week working things out with her. Well, MIL apparently didn't understand what no means as she stood next to me and screaming Francesca, insisting ATLEAST 6 times to take the baby! This was stressing me out more than my screaming baby!

Gosh, cultural differences can be so stressful sometimes!

Learn to say NO GRAZIE, (pause) VERAMENTE.
And say it firmly and with a smileless face. Then immediately after smile or they will think you are rude, and say GRAZIE COMUNQUE. (they might ask you if you are sure and you reply you are)Sicuro/a? SI, GRAZIE.
This in most of the cases should work with no more trying.

To return to the original hospital topic:

When I was 11 years old I spent several days in the hospital in the US, over Thanksgiving weekend. In spite of being in a ward full of other kids I felt desperately scared and alone and sad that I wasn't spending Thanksgiving with my family - visiting hours were brief, as far as I recall.

When my daughter was 14 (two years ago) she broke her arm badly and had to have surgery and stay in the hospital. They put her in a room with two beds so I could stay with her for the two nights she was there - even though the osteo ward was overflowing and we were actually next door in pediatrics. I had to get my meals from the hospital bar (who wants hospital food anyway?), but they let me stay free of charge. Which was a huge comfort to the whole family.

Mimma, the wonderful Sicilian lady who cleans for us, and considers herself part of the family, was enormously offended that I didn't call right away to let her know so she could come and help!

So it can get overwhelming, but I like the Italian instinct to be there for family when they're in hospital - it's a scary enough place to be without having to face it alone.