Here I go again...things are still absolutely miserable. I'm seeing a therapist now, which helps. I've realized now that my baby wasn't sleeping at all in Italy because of her sensing my struggles. Here in the States she is now sleeping and always has slept much better.

My marriage is honestly in crisis now. This scares the heck out of me and scares me to go back to Italy. I've tried to talk my husband into compromising but he insists that there is no compromise in love, only love which is sacrifice. Is that a common Italian idea? What bugs me the most is we didn't plan for this move. We never sat down and looked at finances,what it would take to move and live in Rome, what our future goals are and how and if this would line up with them,etc. He just assumed that it was the right thing because his parents bought us a two bedroom condo and so we wouldn't have to pay rent or mortgage. Now I look back and see how immature this was of me to even go along with let alone actually believe.

I don't mean to depress anyone with this story. I love my husband and want to make things work. But I feel he's so hard to work with and I feel as though there is more than meets the eye in his excuses for not moving out of Rome atleast, let alone back to America. <sigh> I'm very unsure what to do and I feel very alone and scared.

Cassi/catherine - really really sorry to hear about this. Not really sure what to say. If you want to meet sometime for that coffee/beer after you get back from the US (when do you get back?) you have my email address. I'm around over Xmas.

I am sorry for what you are going through and i can understand what you are feeling.
If you are having any doubts about your marriage and your well being I would suggest you should stay in Chicago and continue with your therapist.
I am assuming that you have your family nearby and this is very important. This is the time you need their support the most.
Take all the time you need to sort out your feelings and emotions in a place where you feel safe and secure before going back to Italy.
From the sounds of it you are more content now and so is your baby. Take that as a sign that you are doing the right thing.
If your husband loves you (which I am sure he does!) he will understand now..or maybe later that this is what you need to have a happy and healthy family.
www.anythingbutdull.blogspot.com

Do you speak Italian? Have you tried to enter into Italian life? It isn't easy, but if you did it might help. You might discover a side of yourself you never dreamed of.

Autumn makes an excellent suggestion. Sometimes working out a problem takes time, and often the time is spent more profitably if you are less stressed. Right now you need all the emotional support you can get, and it seems that this is only available to you in Chicago.

It is fairly common in Italy for parents to purchase an apartment for their children. That they purchased one in Rome is a clear indication that that's where they wanted their son to live. That he allowed them to do so, is a clear indication that this is what he wanted as well. Then, in essence, you were presented with a "fait accompli."

I know you love your husband and he loves you, but right now he is not supporting you emotionally. When he says "that there is no compromise in love, only love which is sacrifice," he is speaking of your sacrifice, not his; and this is both immature and unfair.

You need to find a compromise that works for both of you, and compromise often involves sacrifice, but your husband needs to understand that your needs are as important as his own.

quote:

We never sat down and looked at finances,what it would take to move and live in Rome, what our future goals are and how and if this would line up with them,etc.

Somebody should propose a law that young lovers shouldn't be allowed to marry and have kids before they discuss their individual future goals and dreams and how to deal with the differences. My husband and I never discussed this either, and while neither of us moved to a new country to be with the other this still proved to be the biggest mistake ever. We just thought that everything would work out for the best because we did what felt right. We never made a plan. Never really talked about who we are and what we want.
It must be easier to deal with these questions if you do it right away, rather than wait seven years and THEN try to work things out.

Sorry Cassi, I don't have any advice for you - but for what it's worth, I know where you're at and I know how it feels.

I am so glad to hear that you have someone helping you. The very idea that calcio continued to be a given when an entire family was in crisis chilled my soul.
I'm sure that options exist, and that they should be explored by everyone involved. Apartments in Rome rent for high prices, sell for high prices, and there are cheaper and possibly easier bedroom communities all around Rome. It's possible, too, that you might enjoy Rome more when you are not so tied down with a baby.
I have a hard time with statements like the one about compromise. It's like that sappy sentiment that love means never having to say you are sorry. What crap! Love means that it's even more important to deal with everything: sorry, compromise, sacrifice, every human feeling.
You need this rest and time away. He needs to put everything back on the table, and you too. I wish you all the best and all the strength it takes.

My in-laws didn't buy us an apartment but my MIL had a very strong hold over my OH for many years. It takes alot of strength and courage to overcome this bond your husband has - and he has to want to and see it for what it is - a wedge between you and him. You say you think there is more to him wanting to stay in Rome - yes it is doing what his parents want! Unless this changes you will have to realise that this is always going to be part of your marriage to him. My OH changed but it took a long time and he now rarely speaks to his mother as he now feels she was deliberately trying to split us by her manipulations. I am not saying this is what your in-laws are trying to do - they possibly think they are helping you the best they can and have good intentions - only you know this. But as long as your husband is in thrall to his parents you will come second. You will either have to learn how to work around this to your advantage or decide this situation is not for you. A therapist is a good start - if nothing else it gives you someone to sound off to, I had my sister and Rome I know you have no-one except this board. Stay in the US and get yourself sorted - if your husband doesn't accept you need to do this then I think that tells you alot. Good luck and keep strong!

I agree with the other posters that this bit about "love being sacrifice" sounds like self serving bull---. Where is HIS sacrifice?

I'm afraid I can't help you on the dynamics of (some) Italian mothers and sons as my OH is not Italian and does not have that bond with his mother. However, them buying him (and you) an apt and then expecting you to just fit in with their plans for their son sounds like they don't really know you or accept that you are American and have a different culture. Are your in-laws interested in learning about your culture and background? Have they visited the US? Do they want to hear about your traditions and life in the US? It sounds like they are completely discounting your differentness and expect you to just become an Italian to fit in.

I hate to bring this up - but if you really feel like your marriage is in crisis you need to make an appointment with a lawyer asap. I know a very good English speaking family lawyer in Rome - let me know.

quote:

Originally posted by Ramona:
I'm afraid I can't help you on the dynamics of (some) Italian mothers and sons as my OH is not Italian and does not have that bond with his mother. However, them buying him (and you) an apt and then expecting you to just fit in with their plans for their son sounds like they don't really know you or accept that you are American and have a different culture. Are your in-laws interested in learning about your culture and background?

My MIL is British as is OH - you don't need to be Italian believe me!

Cassi,
OK, I'd say just take a deep breath and don't make any snap decisions. Not knowing your husband or his family, I think it'd be wrong to just say "Divorce the *******!" I was in a somewhat similar position about five years ago (sans baby, and I know that makes a difference) in that I saw my significant other as having 'trapped' me here. He would say similar things, such as 'Love is sacrifice,' blah, blah, blah and felt that his having left his parents' home and having moved out to be with me (he was still studying, we had to pay rent and had little money, etc.) was as big a sacrifice as my having moved over here. Anyway, I won't get into my situation but I will tell you that I saw my husband as the 'bad guy' in the whole thing. But with A LOT of time and a lot of work on this relationship what I figured out is that his knee-jerk comments and reactions were not truly the way he felt but said out of fear of losing me. Every time I said 'Gosh, I miss this...' instead of supporting me he would respond back with some nasty comment or would tell me all the reasons Italy was better. It was a horrible period and I felt so alone and so idiotic for having left a great life in the U.S. to come here. BUT we worked it out. Even his family has changed a lot -at the beginning they'd say ignorant things, such as 'Aren't you so glad to be in Italy where the food, etc. is better?' NOT recognizing my culture at all or recognizing how homesick I was. It was not to be mean - they just didn't know better. Now we are a perfectly fine, normal couple who does not feel these differences at all. The point is - do not paint him and his family as the 'bad guys' (though maybe they are - I don't know these people) and rush to get a divorce if there is something that can be salvaged there. You two probably need to just sit down now and say 'OK, these are the things I need' or 'I can give you two years in Rome but then I expect to go back to the U.S.' Compromises need to be made. I used to say this all the time to my husband - we are both from different places and our whole life will be a compromise. One person can't direct the relationship. Maybe the deal is you live in Rome and return home to the U.S. often - or vice versa. Good luck and if you need to talk, my email address is on my blog. I'm also Skypeable (I have a U.S. phone number).
Michelle

Cassi,
I was thinking about you and your situation and I just wanted to stress how much people can change. I was remembering how my husband in the beginning of my time here would say things, such as 'I will NEVER spend my August/Christmas/etc. in the U.S.' and I used to have to go home alone every time (this was a shocker actually as he used to seem to like to come visit me there when we were long distance). Anyway, fast forward a few years later and the guy is always on Delta.com planning the next visit to the U.S. He can't go enough and is potentially at this point more inclined to move there than I am. I want to move back but not in this exact moment. People change or sometimes people react in ways that don't truly reflect the way they feel. It's pure pride and self preservation. Your husband has to be feeling (obviously) how unhappy you are in Rome and maybe it's easier for him to shut it out. Maybe he's thinking 'My parents got us this fantastic apartment and it's just not good enough for her. I'm unable to make her happy...' Whatever the case, it CAN be worked out if you are willing and your husband can be a reasonable person. I just wanted to let you know that.
Michelle

So many good points, but only you, Cassi, can determine where the problem really lies. There are likely many nuances in the relationship between you and your husband and in-laws that are difficult to convey.

My solid Italian heritage helps me to understand parents' eagerness to provide financial assistance to even their grown children. Were I in a position to purchase a condo for mine, however, I would give them the money to do so themselves. I am uncomfortable with the concept of a parent deciding where and how a grown child should live.

There is another issue as well--a legal one. To whom does the condo belong? Is it owned by your in-laws who then permit you to live in it rent free? Is the title in your husband's name or is the title held jointly by both you and your husband? The answers to these question will help you determine the motivations of your in-laws and also may provide a clue as to why your husband insists on staying in Rome.

I will reiterate my repugnance for the concept of "no compromise." That's what marriage is all about--compromise, and this is something your husband must learn to accept. Of course, you must be willing to compromise too. People have long vacations in Italy. Perhaps you can visit the U.S. the month before your husband's vacation begins, and then he can join you during his "ferie." This will give you more time at home and will give him the opportunity to fulfill your needs as well as his own.

Stay strong, Cassi. Understand that most marriages endure some sort of a crisis, and often survive. Here's hoping yours does too.

Firstly, Cassi, enjoy your time in the states. It is, in many ways, easier here! Especially with a baby.

Secondly, I am not a marriage counselor, just a married person. SO, there you go. With that caveat, a couple of things strike me.

People only know what they know. His parents unless you have both sat down and spoken to them, may have no idea that what they consider normal and appropriate, you may consider controlling and buttinski. Sometmes people let things get to the boiing point when a conversation in the beginning may have helped. Now, consider I don't know the dynamics between you and the in-laws, I just offer that up as true for anyone. Even your husband. Just as you have your "ideals" abotu compromise, what you think is right and how you think things should be handled, so does he. Patterns in our brains for 30 some years are always difficult to break not matter how magnanimous one thinks they are! It takes a really self-aware person to recognize all the small things that make up who we are while at the same time recognizing how those may affect those around us.

Sometimes (often) a crisis helps us recognize these things. Just when you think you can't do "something" anymore, alas, you can and you come out stronger/different/changes/evolved, whatever. I am not saying you must stick it out in Rome, I am just saying now is not probably the time for rash decisions. Now that there is a child involved it complicates things to the nth degree, for sure. Because you have her best interests to look out for and this picture includes relationships with father and in-laws, etc.

In any event, I am sure I speak for others when I say this is what the board is for. Wish I were in Italy to lend an ear, but looks like several people are or are nearby. Hang in there short term. And, again, enjoy your time in the states!

Thanks so much for all of your support. It helps to know that there are people out there who can lend an ear and understand that what I'm going through isn't ridiculousness either.

The condo is in my husbands name. I'm not sure if it's in his parents' name as well, but I'm sure it's in his name and I am not included. I also am not on our bank account. Everytime I need money, I have to ask my husband for it. I do feel that my husband is scared of losing me and our daughter and that is why he says some of the things he does, but It's so hard to really sit down and decipher things when we are both fighting for our needs to be met instead of meeting one anothers needs.

Before we were married, I lived in Rome for three miserable years. I couldn't take it anymore and I told my husband (then boyfriend) that something had to change. Either I would go back to the States alone or married or stay in Italy with him, married. Well, staying in Italy was not an option as we could not afford it. He had no stable job and I was tired of teaching English. So, we married and moved to America, both with high hopes.

For a whole year I was deathly afraid that he would ask me to move back to Italy. I was happy in America and did not want to move back. As time passed, I started to feel more calm about it and one day my husband was offered a job at a school in Italy. He begged me to go back. I accepted, thinking it was the right thing to do, as his parents were going to buy us a condo, everything seemed right. But, as I said before, it wasn't thought through on either part.

9 months later, Francesca was born. That's when reality struck. "Oh my goodness, we are moving to Italy in 3 months and I have to take care of a little one?!" I suddenly started to realize that I hadn't thought through everything before. I tried to talk my husband out of it, but ofcourse it was no use. He insisted that I just trust him. He gave me no consolation, no reasons as to why I should think that things would go smoothly in Italy this time. I just had to trust him. I was furious. To me you should discuss things with your partner. But I also understand that he was probably freaking that I had changed my mind.

So I said I'd give it a go. The first couple weeks I was still not happy to be there, but I gave it my all. I continued to give it my all, but depression started to sink in and the reality of living in a dirty, garbage infested, noisy, chaotic, fight for your place in line city started to sink in. I started to become agressive, as all do in a city in order to keep your place. It's incredibly unpleasant to me. I even speak Italian so well, that people think I must be from the north by my blonde hair. And getting out with a baby in the States wasn't easy. I started to try in Rome, but it was just too much hassle to be worth it to me, even with a car. I tried to contact previous friends that lived in Rome. They had all long gone. I was insanely jealous of them.

Anyways, that's just a bit of my story. I will do everything I can to fight for my family so that it will not end up in divorce. I'm not exactly sure how to go about that right now which is what makes me soo immensely scared. He has had soooo many people tell him that we should have waited to do this. He has had Italian immigrants in the States tell him, 4 of our closest priest friends who are really incredible people tell him, his uncle etc. tell him. I never even talked to these people about my feelings and they knew somehow enough to tell him themselves.

And now I have said that we need a compromise, even moving outside of Rome for now. But he's making problems out of that because of the apartment his parents bought us. I feel last on his list, but then again he probably feels last on mine. He keeps insisting that I cannot change my mind about Rome because I had said before we were married that I would move back if he wouldn't like the States. Little did I know then what it is like to have a child and how much your life is truly effected.

I'm so sorry, Cassi; you're in a terrible bind. I'm glad you have a support group (family, priests, friends) to help you sort the whole thing out.

I know that money and assets are the least of your concerns right now, but be clear about this--your in-laws did not "buy us" a condo; they bought him a condo, and this makes all the difference in the world. Your husband controls the money, owns all the family assets and insists that you "trust him." When will he demonstrate his trust for you by sharing the condo ownership, the bank account and the decision making?

Your husband may indeed be worried about losing you, and quite frankly, he should be worried. Child or no child, I would begin making some demands here. I'm sorry if I sound a bit too vehement, but your husband is trying to control you--legally, financially, and socially, and this is not a good basis for a solid marriage.

You are financially vulnerable, and although this may be the least of your concerns right now, it is tremendously important. You are a wife, a mother, and an intelligent adult. You do not need a husband to handle your finances and to tell you how you should live your life. Maybe it's time to tell your husband not what you're "feeling," but rather what you're "thinking," and what you expect.

Oh, and I've spoken to his sister about the whole thing. She is awesome about it all. She knows her brother well and says that he didn't try all that hard in America. He would call his mom everyday and talk lengthy with her. His sister told my mil not to allow that because it wasn't helping him to integrate, but she replied what is she supposed to do about it?
She cannot say no to her son but also admits that he is incredibly lazy and tells me that I have to change that!
And now I am being accused of not really loving him when I married him, but just needing him.

If I go back to Italy can they prevent me from coming to visit the States, legally? He did all he could this time around to convince me not to go for three weeks ahead of him. Again, probably out of fear. But doesn't that mean that he should know that something needs to change??

Cassi, I'm sure you didn't need permission to leave Italy this time, and it's unlikely you will the next time. You should, however, check the Italian laws regarding custody of a minor child. But, realistically, as long as you're both trying to work things out amicably, this shouldn't be an issue.

I understood that here when a woman is married and has a child she is protected considerably financially.... ?

You may well be right, Delina, but it's worth checking into.

Frankly, it bothers me more that a man feels it's ok to control all the assets in a marriage and make all the decisions. I like to think of marriage as a partnership (equal partners--no junior and senior members).

Cassi, I don't really want to offer advice because I don't feel qualified but I just wanted to say I'm sorry things got so bad for you and I hope you can work something out.