I recently had somewhat of a political discussion, much against the advice of my wife, with my father in law. It kind of came down to the whole issue of telling the truth and corruption in politics and business. Today I came across this quote about the truth in a blog I read from time to time and I thought it might have some application here. In fact maybe more so here than in other countries.

"William Kristol's father Irving Kristol, the "godfather" of American neoconservativism, established a hierarchy of truth. "There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people," he once said in an interview. "There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy."

And your point is?

quote:

Originally posted by Bill 2:
And your point is?

And your point is?

I'm merely asking what you are getting at. Your post is vague to the point of meaninglessness. Are you recommending Kristol's point of view to Italians? Chissa?- your post doesn't communicate a cogent message.

This is, at its most basic, modern Straussian philosophy, though it descends from Plato's 'Noble Lie' concept.

That it is okay to lie to or manufacture myths for the populace to maintain the status quo (usually benefiting the ruling class) and further; that decisions should be made by a ruling elite.

This is a profoundly undemocratic concept, IMNSHO.

See Wikipedia.

Bill Kristol seems to have taken the old man's words to heart- he's constantly trumpeting the Bush administration's position on the war on television.

Still no idea what jhelm thinks this has to do with Italy- and he is unable to clarify. Let's guess- maybe he thinks Italians agree with Kristol about the relativity of truth. Yeah, that's the ticket!

Bill it's interesting that you have to be told precisely what the point is when others such as Gioele seem to be able to start an intelligent conversation, without the personal attacks. It's really not too complicated even for you. Just a simple comment on something that is more a or less a way of life in Italy.

So you think Italians agree with Mr Kristol. You did not state that in your first post, nor did Gioele appear to have taken that meaning in his post.

Not sure why you perceive being asked to clarify something as a personal attack, though it is common for one who fails to effectively communicate to blame the reader/listener for their own failing.

Gentlemen, gentlemen!

There was a slight disconnect between the philosophy of lying and the Italians, who are (I've said it before) notorious liars, and as far as I can tell, relish in the talent they are blessed with.

Italians may make distinctions about what lies to tell whom on what occasions, but they are hardly unique (tell me you have never lied to your child about when you will get to your destination, and puhleeze, guys, why is "Your hair looks fine" considered one of the all-time most-frequently-told lies?).

Politicians have another row to hoe entirely: getting elected. To this end, as nearly as I can tell, they will say anything today, say the direct opposite tomorrow, and yet spin another story completely the week after.

Lying is ok when its purpose is to not offend (hair looks fine, honey) or to calm waters (we should be able to see the beach any time now). I don't agree with compartmentalising lies to justify them, so in effect, I don't agree with Irv Kristol: he has attempted to justify them on semi-official grounds, and, no, sorry: boat don't float. We lie on the spot for reasons of exigence most of the time; we should not be programmed to do so on pre-established criteria.

quote:

...Italians, who are (I've said it before) notorious liars...

See http://expattalk.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/6390021403/...190012145#5190012145

quote:

Italians, who are (I've said it before) notorious liars, and as far as I can tell, relish in the talent they are blessed with

http://expattalk.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/6390021403/...190012145#5190012145

Are Pollacks proud of being stupid?

No, we tend to think of ourselves as quite enlightened, as a matter of fact....

Thank you, I didn't think so.

quote:

Originally posted by filomena:
Are Pollacks proud of being stupid?

Are you proud of being prejudiced?

All this brings to mind a thread started about two years ago: >HERE<

In fin dei conti - nothing has, or ever will, change!

I see one slight difference between these two threads.

Carole's is about a specific person, who happens to be Italian, who is being dishonest.

Whereas the present thread is labelling all Italians as liars.

It's easy to slip from individual instances to generalizing about an entire nationality, race, gender, religion, etc. Avoiding the tendancy requires a bit of discipline, but the pay off is worth the effort. Not misjudging millions of people is a worthwhile end.

originally posted by Bill2:

Yes, and the Irish are drunks, blacks are lazy, and Pollacks are stupid.

Not hip to irony?

I'm closing this thread.