if its one thing that i can't stand its discrimination and racism. its pure ignorance. has anyone ever felt this living in italy? i certainly have. i'm an american and proud to be, pacific islander by origin and damn proud to be and boy have they stared, sorrounded, and questioned me. they certainly have treated me differently and have felt unwelcomed at times. but i have always fought back(thanks to my grandmonther) which is not good because being so petite they can easily kill me. being at the questura today i really missed america and all the things we americans take for granted sometimes. i love america and italy but sometimes i feel like i'm just on the fence.
PLEASE READ MY SECOND POST THAT BETTER EXPLAINS THIS POST. OTHERWISE WE WILL BE REPEATING OURSELVES OVER AND OVER.
Europe is far more racist and sexist than the US. I think we go overboard in the US at times in protecting each others' feelings, but we've had much more experience in dealing with people of all different backgrounds and races. Europe is just now experiencing this phenomenon and are reacting the same way that Americans did a couple generations ago.
Not to say that America is perfect when it comes to racism, but I think that we've just had more experience with the subject and have leaped over that hurdle.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: BrianB,
Perhaps that was a little harsh, but I believe the general idea is correct. Finding a help wanted sign in the window of a bar that says, "Waitress Needed. Only attractive girls need apply." is not something you would find in the US. There is no Lega Nord party in the US.
Perhaps I should have said, "You won't find as many outwardly visible signs of racism and sexism as you will in the Europe."
Like I said, America hasn't discovered the answer to racism either, so I wasn't trying to paint Europe as inferior and American superior.
Brian, I think Delina was maybe also referring to the fact that the U.K., for example, is incredibly multicultural. Maybe Italy is just now facing the integration of different cultures but the U.K. has a long experience with it as well.
I do agree, though, that putting information about age or appearance in the help wanted ads (and the fact that you have to put age or marital status on a CV) makes for frustrating job searching. I think it's technically illegal but the fact that they feel so comfortable doing it means it's just accepted practice. Michelle
Brian, please acknowledge that Europe consists of 46 different countries, all with different cultures. I guarantee that you will find LESS "outwardly visible signs of racism and sexism" in Scandinavia, for example, than in the US. Yet we're still European. Racism, sexism, ageism and most kinds of -isms are horrible; but by making generalisations you're kind of doing the same thing you despice.
I also wanted to add here that a black model friend of mine came to stay with me for a while during the men's fashion shows. I noticed that he always went out for castings impeccably dressed (most models slouch out to castings in jeans and flip flops). When I asked him if this was because he feared he'd face some racism in Italy or be confused with an illegal (other black friends have told me this happens), he said he actually went around dressed the same way in Chicago because if he wore "baggy clothes" he'd be followed in the stores and suspected of shoplifting. That made me really sad. Being a petite blonde woman, I can wear whatever I like and nobody ever 'targets' me - or at least not as a shoplifter. So, yes, in the U.S. it is less outward. But it's still there. Michelle
I'm going to be picky here - so you've visited EVERY country in Europe and, presumably, visited EVERY state in the US and you can say this is generally the case?!
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying racism doesn't exist, unfortunately the example you quoted was discrimination, but from a European perspective I think MOST of us think the US is more racist! Why are all criminals apparently black? Gangsters Italians and Irish?
We have our stereotypes too, but there is definitely a bit of pot and kettle going on here!
dentpatient - I apologise, as a European, for the treatment you have received, it is inexcusable in this day and age of migration and integration. You should be able to go anywhere without prejuidice and hopefully one day we will. Differences are drawn attention to here, irrespective of nationality. My son and daughters blue eyes are always commented upon. Not the same, just an example that differences are noted and made much of. In the UK comment is made on how light or dark someone is as we tend to fall in the "mousey" middle! I'm just trying to show people react to anything not the norm. There is no excuse when the reaction is negative. I hope things do improve for you.
Everyone, please read my second post before putting words in my mouth that I called every European a racist.
Excuse my above comment. I said it with no malice, but you all have taken it as such. It was a simple anecdote of the differences between cultures of where I live and where I once lived. Label me as you please, but I know for a fact that I'm not the first expat to note the difference. As an example, the help wanted example I gave above was from another expat's blog.
thanks alyson. being different definitely has its pluses and minuses. being from california it was a whole melting pot of diverse people, then to boston which was much more closed, but here in italy its just that feeling of that you will never belong because you are different (unless you are caucasian it all seems to be ok). racism will always exist in my opinion, and people like me and you just have to learn to not be affected by it and not encourage it. because once youre on the other side of the fence its not a great feeling.
Label me as you please, but I know for a fact that I'm not the first expat to note the difference. As an example, the help wanted example I gave above was from another expat's blog.
Sure - it may be like this in Italy. That, however, does not automatically mean that it's a European feat, and I think that's what we (non-Italian Europeans) reacted to.
A job ad like that would be a case for the police in Sweden. It is strictly forbidden to ask for a certain age, sex, skin color, religion etc in job ads here. Discrimination is taken extremely seriously here.
Originally posted by dentpatient: but here in italy its just that feeling of that you will never belong because you are different (unless you are caucasian it all seems to be ok).
Not just because one is Caucasian does not make it all "ok". Easier maybe, but not always. Example in point, I went down to the Questura for my Italian passport. Was greeted by an officer at the front desk, asking what he could do for me. As I started to speak, in Italian he picked up I am a foreigner, and was greeted with the attitude of "what makes you feel you are entitled to an Italian passport?". I had to firmly state "Io ha doppio cittidinaza, grazie". In the beginning this used to really bother me, but one learns to blow it off to ignorance. Just boils down to the multi cultural scene is still fairly "new" here. Plus from what I have heard (even from my Italian husband) some people here tend to be a bit provincial, even someone from the next village can be seen as "different". So it is not just those of us from different countries and cultures. Even fellow Italians Ann My Life in Italy
Posts: 118 | Location (City & State): Busto Arsizio VA Italy | Registered: 14 December 2004
I have always been told that an Italian regards himself, for instance, firstly as a Florentine, then as a Tuscan, and always, outside Italy, as an Italian. I don't regard myself as a Mancunian, Lancastrian then British, but as British - well English ! So, Ann, I think you are right, but then compared even to the US we are talking about a very 'new' country here, just over 130 years old? So maybe suspicion of strangers in the broadest sense should be understood in that context. I don't know?
Hmm, there’s undoubtedly racism here as there is in many places, and degree of colour does come in to it, but as somebody else has pointed out they may well look askance at somebody from the next town or valley. In that next town they probably talk with a different accent too , which also helps accentuate any differences. All these factors come into play.
You have to put up with a certain overt interest in your difference. It’s how that interest is expressed that is important, and how you react. For example being stared at is a common complaint on these boards. It’s rude but most of us don’t let it blight our existence. Stay in one place for a while, go to the same bar/restaurant/shop and smile a bit and you’ll soon be getting nods of recognition in the street.
A couple of final points: what has being American and proud of it to do with any discrimination? You also say that you ‘fought back’ – how and against what exactly.? Without knowing the facts of what happened it’s difficult to comment, but the general feeling on these boards for _all_ of us is that we sometimes have to go with the flow.
Where to draw the line, that’s probably the big issue.
Posts: 719 | Location (City & State): Valle d'Aosta | Registered: 24 November 2005
Having toured the U.S. 15 or more times, all over Europe and Australia, I can say racism is everywhere. S is sexism. I will say that I am disgusted that the U.S. views sex or sexual imagery as so taboo, yet has no problem showing it on CSI as long as it is associated with rape or other violent act. Violence, murder, etc is far more acceptable in the U.S as entertainment than sex is. Perhaps that is why there are so many rapes. Europe in general is more laid back. Someone said in the US there is no Lega Nord. Have you heard of the KKK? Black Panthers? That may be extreme, but there is fascism and race supremacy in the U.S. How many people have heard New Yorkers or San Franciscans refer to the suburbans as "bridge and tunnel F#%&"? Local supremacy. Many people fear what they don't understand and worse, put down others to make themselves feel more important, higher classed (you see it in all social systems), or self-righteous. Many religions (and political parties) have leader who are guilty of playing to their audience for their own promotion. Hate breeders. Fear mongers. People need to point the finger elsewhere lest they look at themselves and face harsh reality. Basta!
Posts: 82 | Location (City & State): Padova, IT | Registered: 25 January 2005
couple of final points: what has being American and proud of it to do with any discrimination? You also say that you ‘fought back’ – how and against what exactly.? Without knowing the facts of what happened it’s difficult to comment, but the general feeling on these boards for _all_ of us is that we sometimes have to go with the flow.
Read the original post- she is of Pacific Islander origin, walked into the Questura, was surrounded by police and questioned. In her other post, Carta di soggiorno per motivi familiari, she states:
quote:
after being treated like an animal by the questura police/or door guard yelled at in italian, interogated as if i was a criminal they let me through the door
If she were Caucasian, I doubt this would have happened.
Err .... what language should the door guard have used?! He is Italian, you are in Italy - people will speak in Italian to you.
As for racism, whilst I have no doubt it exists in Italy, I suspect it's more a case of ignorance, possibly poor education and certainly a lack of awareness of other cultures. I have to bite my tongue when I am in the company of my suocera sometimes, but I have to tell myself that she doesn't know any better. After all, the politicians hardly set a good example. I listened to one recent speech by a politician that would have caused uproar in the UK. Think how vaunted Alessandra Mussolini is - treated like a VIP. Can't imagine any offspring of Hitler getting the same treatment!
I have posted several times on here about how much I get stared at. It's rude and ignorant, but not racist. I'm a blonde, blue-eyed caucasian, so down in Lecce that makes me stand out. As soon as I open my mouth, I get asked if I am German or (new one here) Polish!
Sadly you will just have to get used to it, like we all have to.
BTW, BrianB - as the others have said, be careful with 'Europe'. It's a huge place and you simply cannot compare the UK and Scandinavia with Italy and Spain, for eg, when it comes to dealing with multiculturalism.
The most racist place I have ever been to? St. Louis, USA. Dreadful place.
I get stared at and sexually harassed too and I live in Rome - supposedly a cosmopolitan city and the most multicultural in Italy. I'm sure it's way worse if you're not white. I'm just a caucasian woman who does not look Italian.
MrsC - I don't think that the original poster was commenting on the fact that she got yelled at in Italian but rather that she got yelled at. That kind of behaviour is inexcusable - especially when dealing with a government official (we pay their salaries afterall.)
Anyway- maybe people here are just "ignorant" and maybe St Louis is the most racist place on earth (never been there so wouldn't know) but Dentpatient is comparing her experiences in the US with her experiences here - as we all do - and it sounds like she has good reason to be angry.
Annika, I think that might have been because you were with your husband and son in Rome. Very few would make any kind of remark to a woman here with her family. From what I’ve understood, Ramona spends more time walking around Rome alone and this makes a difference.
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! So, Ann, I think you are right, but then compared even to the US we are talking about a very 'new' country here, just over 130 years old? So maybe suspicion of strangers in the broadest sense should be understood in that context. I don't know?