I go to the pool swim for about an hour see many of the same people everytime. They don't make eye contact, don't speak to me etc. I assume they are stuck up and unfriendly. I am not an outgoing person so I usually wait to be spoken to first.

BUT, after sometime I can't stand it anymore and I say some greeting in Italian or English or both, all of a sudden it's oh hi, where are you from, my name is so in so, etc. etc. then see you next time and from then on there is at least an acknowledgement of my existence when we see each other. Funny!

I hear and read this a lot, mainly from Americans, but to me this is not that unusual. I don't know how other Brits feel but in my experience, it can take a while in the UK for people to acknowledge you in gyms, pools etc.

I have also heard the story about how long it takes to make friends that you can rely on and open up to - everyone here is an aquaintance until you have known them for years? Again, I didn't find this that unusual, although it doesn't take me years to make a good friend I only have 3 or 4, not all in the UK either, the rest are aquaintances.

Unless it is just me I wonder if this is more a European thing than an Italian thing?

It's funny that you say that because I find the opposite. Here in Rome everyone is really friendly and chatty - it's one of the things I like about Rome. And this is a big city.

For example, in my building you have to say "buon giorno" and then have a little chat with all the neighbours when you see them, even the ones you don't know. And in shops and restaurants everyone wants to talk. And once you've been to a shop a couple of times you're like old friends. At the restaurant where we go in our neighbourhood everyone knows us and they all come over to our table to talk.

And the weirdest thing, at least for me, is that the checkout chick at the supermarket near us knows us and always talks to us. At first I thought she was flirting with my boyfriend but she does it to me too. I guess it's more pleasant being friendly than just scanning the groceries.

I have always been a very shy person but since moving here I have usually made the first move to converse in order to be able to practice my Italian. It has amazed me how many people have become chatty and friendly with me because of that.I am so glad that I forced myself to talk to people as my living experience here is all the richer for the many wonderful friends and acquaintances that have followed.

I'm American but not one of those 'Have a nice day' people. I'm fairly reserved. Maybe I'm just used to living in big cities and people not being particularly friendly but I don't find the Milanese cold. People tend to say "buongiorno" and continue going about their business. But that's fine with me. Having to stop and chit chat with everyone I met would not be my thing.

I have found it very hard to make close Italian friends. I have lots of acquaintances but not one really good Italian friend - except for the one I married, that is. And not for lack of trying. I just find that our backgrounds tend to be very, very different (seems those of Italian origin have an easier time with this, but I am not of Italian origin) and it's difficult forming a bond even if on paper we have many things in common.
Michelle

when i go to the pool i like to swim so it suits me fine if people don't talk to me. Once in the UK (was in DEvon I think) i went swimming at a pool in a gym and everyone was more interested in chatting than swimming. Drove me crazy! This didn't happen often in London.
BTW if you ever want someone to talk to you here at the pool, you just have to 'forget' some essential piece of gear (ie bathrobe, hairdryer, shower shoes, pool shoes etc etc etc....) and you'll have lots of people asking you why etc then striking up a conversation later....

For me they used to spy on you when you weren't looking. They have perhaps noticed that you are a foreigner and wonder if they can talk you in Italian, and so on.
Once estabilished that there is a way to communicate with you they'll start to ask you thing....they have always been curious but now they have the chance to be satisfied!

I think 'reserved' is the word to describe myself along with other English. My Italian husband often tells a story to our Italian friends of how he took the same bus to work in London every day for 7 years. Every day he said 'good morning' and every day he got ignored. He finally gave up and stayed silent. It wasn't until he read Kate Fox's book 'The Rules of Being English' (an excellent read BTW for anyone wanting to understand us!) that he finally understood that many English, myself included, do not wish to instigate daily chats with strangers that we might be forced to continue every day. If a stranger attempts conversation with you on the tube or something he or she would be construed as a wierdo. If someone (especially male) tried to chat to me in a public pool I would most likely get out straight away! That's just the way we are. We had friends from Napoli visit who were stunned by the silence on the tube. They said that in Napoli everyone chats to each other on the buses.

Well it's true the pool or the gym is not the best place to make friends. In the US at the gym people think you are trying to pick them up male or female though the pool crowd was a little "warmer". I too don't go to the pool to chat, swimming 1,600 meters takes awhile and chatting would break up the whole rutine. But just a boun girno or ciao when there are 2 or 3 of us catching our breath is nice. So I make some effort.

We have had a fairly easy time making friends and aquaintences otherwise mainly because relatives have introduced us to people and we have school age children. The north mountain areas are known to be a bit closed though. The one time I was in Rome I thought the people were pretty friendly overall. There was always someone to help get the stroller up the stairs and I still haven't forgotten the guy who didn't charge me for a couple of bolts to fix it at the hardware store.

It's really just about people wherever you go, be nice and some nice comes back to you.

quote:

Originally posted by MrsCalabrese:
If a stranger attempts conversation with you on the tube or something he or she would be construed as a wierdo. They said that in Napoli everyone chats to each other on the buses.

I've just finished reading Peter Kay's biography "The Sound of Laughter". He describes how one of his "characters" is based on a bloke he knew that would hang around bus stops solely to chat to people! No harm was intended, he was a lonely disabled guy that wanted to spread a little sunshine - instead we Brits just saw him as a bit of a nutter!

On making friends, it depends on what you consider a friend and an acquaintance and all that lies in between. Italians that go to the US always comment on how easy it is to make friends only to find that they disappear as quickly as they appeared. Here it does take a long time to be let into an Italian's inner circle of friends, but once there, it is for the long haul. In Rome I have made more "foreign" Italian friends -- those from Milan and Sicily. Roman women already have their friends -- since 1st grade, and they don't have room for new ones.

quote:

Originally posted by jhelm: I am not an outgoing person so I usually wait to be spoken to first.

Maybe they too are waiting for someone else to make the first move. They may think that because you do not acknowledge them and are a foreigner that you do not speak the language, or maybe they think you are stuck up or shy? Just a thought.

quote:

Maybe they too are waiting for someone else to make the first move. They may think that because you do not acknowledge them and are a foreigner that you do not speak the language, or maybe they think you are stuck up or shy? Just a thought.

Yes, points well taken. It's always a problem for a shy person that people think they (we) are stuck up. That was really the point of my original comment, shy or stuck up. But what do you mean by "do not acknowledge them". What is the best way to do that in Italy? I tend to look people in the eye when I pass them on the street at the pool or wherever. They usually look away or pretend they don't see me. But if you say a word, some greeting, to someone, they almost always, say something back. It's just hard to always have to be the first person to speak.

quote:

But what do you mean by "do not acknowledge them". What is the best way to do that in Italy?

I too am shy but have learned that I have to push myself out of my shell a bit. When I pass someone on the street, see someone at a place I frequent, etc., when I see them look me in the eye I just say "buon giorno" or "buona sera" and that gets the ball rolling. I have started good friendships like this over the past 12 years here, all with just a small hello. A hello leads to discussions about the weather then to where I am from then to whatever.

quote:

We had friends from Napoli visit who were stunned by the silence on the tube. They said that in Napoli everyone chats to each other on the buses.

I have to say that isn't true. I often have to get a bus here in a v dodgy area and if anyone started talking to me on there I'd be off at the next stop!

I do notice that if anyone does talk to each other it's the old people. Also if the driver does any abrupt breaking or misses a stop then quite a few passengers will shout at him/her, but that's about it.

Jhelm, after going to the pool for so long I don't think I could play mind games everytime. Just say "buongiorno", then next time "buongiorno tutto bene etc" and if nothing progresses from there just forget it. Their loss

The medico's or the dentista's waiting room is the place to go for a chat with complete strangers around here. The ice is usually broken with the traditional sorting out of who's seeing which medico or dentista and who's the next cab off the rank. The other day, in the medico's waiting room, we were getting unofficial diagnoses of my wife's condition.

MrsCalabrese - not sure where your H is from but if he tried to chat with random strangers on the Rome underground people would think him a bit odd too! I think that's just a big city thing.

It also makes me sad that there in Rome at least as a youngish woman you have to be a bit unfriendly at times as if you are friendly at least with some men they construe it as a sexual interest. Sad but true. Same in any big city. So I've noticed that my boyfriend has a lot more freedom to chat with random people, smile at people etc than I do just because he is a man.

Up here in Trento, I'd be really surprised if anyone randomly greeted me on the street or at the pool (even though I usually see familiar faces). In fact, every person I've encountered that does do that, is from somewhere else in Italy. Like you said, jhelm, people up here in the north (especially "mountain people") are much more reserved and generally don't strike up conversations with strangers. Heck, even if you're sitting at the same dinner table and they don't know you (because they're a friend of a friend) they may not give you the time of day.

Am I a complete social reject and totally anti-social if I say I REALLY enjoy that about here?



This may make me seem like the worst person ever, but: I hate small talk. Blah blah blah, weather, blah blah blah, work. I'd rather strike up a conversation about something interesting and delve right into things than sit there and waste time having the same conversation I've already had 30 times. I've actually formed some good friendships here off the fact that our first conversation wasn't about the weather.

Anyway, all this to say that maybe people not talking to you on the street or greeting you at the pool doesn't come out of stuck-up OR shyness. Maybe some are just waiting to have something more interesting to say

Anyone with me on this one? Or should I get back behind the sofa....

No, I'm totally with you there. I hate small talk and don't speak unless I have something to say (ie of value). I tend to be quiet during a conversation unless it's a subject I am knowledgeable or interested in, and sometimes get questioned by others (as in, 'you're quiet tonight'). Unless I can contribute in a meaningful way to a conversation, it's better to say nothing. As Denis Thatcher once said, better to say nothing and be thought a fool, than to speak and be confirmed a fool (or words to that effect!).

I guess my reserved nature comes into play when meeting new people, be they acquiantances or friends of husband or his family. I simply cannot bring myself to kiss 'strangers' when time comes to leave, and much prefer a simple shake of the hand. To me, kissing is for intimate friends and even then truly I am not comfortable with that and will avoid it if I can. I have an Italian female friend based in London who insists on linking her arm through mine when we walk as if we were kids at school. Something you do not see in London. I now resort to swapping my handbag over to my other arm to prevent her doing it! Would love to explain to her that this sort of thing isn't the done thing in the UK but worry I would hurt her feelings.

quote:

Basically, I wouldn't greet strangers on the street, not because I am rude or shy, but simply because I have no wish to converse with strangers! Maybe that makes me rude in some people's eyes though .....

Oh, that quote didn't work .... here it is

quote:

Anyway, all this to say that maybe people not talking to you on the street or greeting you at the pool doesn't come out of stuck-up OR shyness. Maybe some are just waiting to have something more interesting to

I guess I'm somewhere in the middle on this. While I don't particularly enjoy small talk (which, btw, is part of the reason I find it difficult to form friendships with Italian women here--it inevitably has to start with small talk, and it's so uncomfortable), I do think that it would be odd to go to the same stores, etc., all the time and not really speak to the same people I see. Even when I lived in a city (Philadelphia), I was "hi plus some small talk" buddies with my bus drivers, subway workers, doormen, grocery store clerks, etc. so it would be odd to me to not have those same exchanges here. That said, random strangers on the street? No, I'm not compelled to speak to them, but if I see the saw the same strangers on a regular basis, I do say hello--without pushing for more (unless, of course, when I was single and said stranger was a cute guy ).

Maybe I'm really an Englishwoman re-incarnated as an American! I find myself identifying more with the English people's comments on this thread than American...

oh, and Ms. Calabrese:
I hate the linky arm thing!! I mean, it's sweet and I feel like I have a nice friendship going when they're comfortable enough to do this, but it's like after about a block it gets old kinda fast. I never know whether to keep a firm grip or let the arm go slack... haha. Just best avoided or kept to a very brief amount of time.