I know we've talked the 'naked women on Italian TV' topic a bit to death but there's an interesting article about it in the Financial Times. The link is here.
Michelle

My Italian DH bought the FT last weekend apposto so that we could read this! Very insightful (and sad) article.

The link above doesn't make it clear, but the article was the lead article of the FT magazine and the cover actually read 'Italy - the land that feminism forgot'.

The even sadder thing is that Italian TV immediately commented on it (in a joky way) by interviewing velines at the beach and basically said words to the effect that Italy didn't care and the English were prigs etc etc. The velines interviewed seemed proud of how they had achieved 'fame'.

That’s a very good article, thanks Michelle, and yes very sad too.

To me Italy seems to be like England was say 30 years ago perhaps or more. Like the article says, no one here does anything about the near naked women displayed everywhere. Some kids even want to be Veline.

I think the telecom advert referred to at the beginning of the article was a recent TIM ad. I was going to put that on my blog but couldn’t get hold of the ad. If that had been shown in other developed countries, for example England, there would have been complaints GALORE and it would have been removed within hours. Instead, here it’s accepted. And there are loads of other ads like it.

About kids getting out of school at 1pm preventing mothers from working; Some schools do finish at 1pm but I know of schools that keep kids up unitl 4. Some nidi even until 6. I think it is all manageable with a babysitter or family help, or a bit of independency on the kid’s part when they get to a certain age. When I finished school I would walk to my grandparents house and stay there for a few hours until mum finished work.

It is unfortunate that the work market here doesn’t really allow mums to take a few years off when their kids are newborns or go part time. This is because there is so little work that if you’re on to a good thing you can’t take too much time off or you risk loosing your job.

The article says that working women have problems buying groceries. It is more difficult but not a reason not to work. Bigger stores do stay open. What I guess I’m saying is that if women want to work, and if of course they find a job here then it can be done. You don’t have to cook and clean for your family always, the family can help or get help so that the mother can work if she wants to. Oh I’d think I do earn more than your average babysitter.

Great article, mschoen. I agree with Delina, though, that it's a bit exaggerated about supermarkets and schools closing at certain times. Maybe in a small village but not in the city. I think the bigger problem is Italian men and older children not doing housework or cooking and expecting women to work the "second shift" at home. And of course the Italian labour market being so rigid that once you find a job you have to hold onto it for dear life and can't go part time or take a few years out without risking your entire career.

I really hate that typical retort that feminists/people who criticise the veline are "prudes" (which was referred to in the article.) When they fire all the bald, old, ugly men in suits on Italian TV and in the Italian parliament and replace them with 20 year old muscle-bound hunks in hotpants -then we'll see who's a prude.

Yes, it is such a knee-jerk reaction to say that if you don't like the veline you are a 'prude' or 'puritanical.' But I think the article makes a good point of talking about the incongruity of, for example, advertising a business mobile phone service by using half-naked women. It just makes no sense.

I also found it interesting he referenced giving birth here and the lack of epidurals. Strangely in talking to Italian women many do not see that as a 'lack of progress' but as a focus on what is natural (well aside from that whole 38% C-section rate - highest in Europe - I guess) in their hospitals. I think this is what they've been brainwashed into believing and many think that epidurals are very, very dangerous. Granted, there are risks involved but I think here they've gone overboard scaring women.

As for work, well I think it goes both ways. Some hired women really take advantage of the system. If you stay home for years and years on end after the birth of your child (after getting a doctor's note and staying home throughout much of the pregnancy even if there are no health problems), you often are taken less seriously at work. I've seen many women stay home for a very long time and in that time the company changes a lot. When they come back the job they had before doesn't technically even exist and they have to be retrofit into a department that doesn't really need them anymore. The idea of keeping a job open for years on end is great in theory but in a business environment it often is not practical. I think Italian women often put family before career (and that's absolutely admirable - don't get me wrong) and don't necessarily shoot for a balance of work and home. For that reason, companies start taking them less seriously and I think that's somewhat understandable. And I say this as a feminist pregnant woman! Nonetheless, the government and companies do very little to help women create that balance.

Michelle

Speaking of half-naked (or naked) women and trash on TV, has anyone noticed that Sky lately has been importing all of these slightly X-rated American shows that in the U.S. only play on pay TV (like the Playboy channel) and that here are on in primetime on the various Fox channels? There are all of these 'Sexy Camera' and 'porno' shows that I didn't even know existed in the U.S. but that are now becoming a mainstay of Sky programming. I find it annoying because it's taking away from the quality stuff, such as Grey's Anatomy. They are programs I certainly wouldn't watch in the U.S. (even if they weren't on pay TV) and the fact that they've decided to bring it over here and put it on regular TV says a lot about their threshold for that stuff.
Michelle

quote:

Some hired women really take advantage of the system. If you stay home for years and years on end after the birth of your child (after getting a doctor's note and staying home throughout much of the pregnancy even if there are no health problems), you often are taken less seriously at work.

I don't know how women manage to pull this one off. I know they get the doctor's note for "gravidanza a rischio", then there's the maternity leave then a few hours off each day for breast feeding, but I don't know how they are able to be off for years. How does it work? Maybe they get another doctor note at the endof the maternity leave?

quote:

Some hired women really take advantage of the system. If you stay home for years and years on end after the birth of your child (after getting a doctor's note and staying home throughout much of the pregnancy even if there are no health problems), you often are taken less seriously at work.

I agree with you here. None of DH's friends' wives who became pg carried on working. As soon as they knew, they managed to get certificates saying that their pregnancies were 'at risk'. It caused a huge ruction between one set of friends. One guy had got another friend's wife a job using his connections, but she promptly became pg (and this was deliberate ie it wasn't an accident). Given the job was working for a tiny business of 3 people, they had to pay her maternity leave (and of course she stopped working straightaway) as well as pay for a new employee to cover her job. I can quite understand why small businesses cannot afford to hire women. In the UK, it would be highly unusual to be given a doctor's certificate to excuse you from working unless there was a really genuine risk.

The telephone ad was for TIM - there was a pic in the magazine. Think the boobs belonged to Canalis.

Has anyone seen the ad for some suntan cream called Birra or something? Features a topless woman frolicking on the beach. I get totally outraged and shocked every time it's on - and well before the 'watershed' of 9pm. Not just one flash of her boobs but continous. If I were an Italian parent I would complain (but I guess that makes me a prude!).

quote:

Originally posted by Delina:

quote:

Some hired women really take advantage of the system. If you stay home for years and years on end after the birth of your child (after getting a doctor's note and staying home throughout much of the pregnancy even if there are no health problems), you often are taken less seriously at work.

I don't know how women manage to pull this one off. I know they get the doctor's note for "gravidanza a rischio", then there's the maternity leave then a few hours off each day for breast feeding, but I don't know how they are able to be off for years. How does it work? Maybe they get another doctor note at the endof the maternity leave?

Delina,
By law the job must be kept open for x number of years. My understanding was up to when the child was three years old. Of course the women are not getting paid the entire time - a chunk of that is unpaid. But for a business, three years is a long time to keep a job open. I covered a leave for a woman who was out for a very long time and by the time she came back, there was really no need for her. The publication she had been working on no longer even existed anymore and so they had to 'invent' a job that didn't even match her qualifications or interests. The company was not happy to have 'dead weight' (literally she was not needed but by law they had to take her back...) and she wasn't happy with her new job but obviously kept it because she was a 'hired' employee and in this market, that's hard to find. Had she come back after, say, six months or nine months, she could have been there when changes were still underway and been able to transition into a job that made sense for her and the company. But three years is a long time...And it obviously makes companies wary of hiring other women.
Michelle

This bit in the article was new to me:

"Italian feminism, say Bonino and Graziella Parati, head of comparative literature at Dartmouth College in the US, used to be strong, but not any more.

“Italy has had a long history of feminism,” says Parati, who has studied Italian culture and written books on gender issues. “It is different from Anglo-American feminism [and] based not on a search for equality but rather on putting an emphasis on difference… Joining a man’s world may be practical, but does not solve the fact that you end up trapped in a system that can contain and invalidate the difference that women’s otherness embodies.”

"Bonino points out that Italian feminism was vigorous in the 1970s when abortion and divorce were legalised – “even with the church next door and the Pope on television every day”. In 1976, she says, 11 per cent of members of parliament were women, the same as today. “Most of my colleagues fell asleep in some way… the women’s movement never pressed for structural reforms and there is still nothing on the agenda. When women fell asleep they followed the cultural mainstream.”

But it doesn't answer why Italian feminism became dormant in the 1970's. Does anyone know?

quote:

Originally posted by Bill 2:
But it doesn't answer why Italian feminism became dormant in the 1970's. Does anyone know?

I have no idea why and I'm sure this is a question Alice could answer better. I will say that the word 'feminist' is a dirty word here, and when I've asked why, I've been told it is because it is somehow tied to saying you are a Communist, a radical, an extremist. Perhaps it went dormant in the 1970s because of something going on politically at the time. I had a recent blow-up on my blog because of some comments I made about a women's event I attended here where male bloggers showed up and ogled the women invitees, made frat boy comments about women's body parts, posted pictures of them on their blogs, etc. For me the most shocking thing was being attacked by Italian WOMEN who didn't agree with me but said things, such as 'Get into 2007. Feminism is over!' My response was basically, 'I'm in 2007. Is Italy when it comes to women's issues?' The point being that I have no idea what happened in the 1970s but it must have been a big deal because even today despite all of the problems facing women in Italy, many Italian women would never call themselves a feminist. Boh.
Michelle

quote:

By law the job must be kept open for x number of years. My understanding was up to when the child was three years old.

That would explain it.

It is a long time, but sometimes I think how else would I avoid handing my (hypothetical) baby straight to a minder. I know someone here (Italian) who worked as late as possible into her pregnancy so that she could have a full year off afterwards. She went back the day after the baby's first birthday. I think I'd be happy to have less than a year off if I could go part time for a couple of years afterwards, but from what I've seen, Italy doesn't do part time hired contracts for some mysterious reason.

I know little about the state of feminism in Italy except that it seems to have made no progress since the 70s. This is true, I think, in the US as well where women typically earn $0.69 (it used to be $0.73) for every dollar a man makes. I like to remind my feminist friends that this is the crux of the matter: equal pay for equal work. The rest is insignificant to me.

Why did feminisim stop advancing after the 70's in Italy Chrisalor?

There must be myriad reasons, Bill, but from my experience a lot of women bought into the criticism that being equal and independent was unfeminine.

It is amazing that the buffaloes came up with a lame weapon that turned out to be so effective, because most of them had their heads so firmly up an intestinal tract that they really didn't see women being or becoming a threat. Then some women started in on it-- mostly it seemed based on Biblical abjurations, (if you pick right you can come up with evidence for either side in the Bible)-- and girls decided to get out the Wonderbra and the Manolos and try it that way.

The unfortunate thing is that women's media features women who are doing OK and are making it in an unfair business world, and they have little interest in feature stories about women refused permanent status, refused raises, left with no health insurance, vacation or hope and fobbed off with food stamps. Poverty doesn't sell, I guess.

quote:

Originally posted by Chrisalor2:
I know little about the state of feminism in Italy except that it seems to have made no progress since the 70s. This is true, I think, in the US as well where women typically earn $0.69 (it used to be $0.73) for every dollar a man makes. I like to remind my feminist friends that this is the crux of the matter: equal pay for equal work. The rest is insignificant to me.

Comparing the status of women in Italy and the U.S. is really apples and oranges. Personally I never felt that my salary was any less than that of the men I worked with in the U.S. I negotiated my own salary every time I came in (something you can't do here) to a new job, so it really depended on how aggressive I was in my negotiations. In the U.S., an 8-month-pregnant woman can look for and feasibly find a job. Here if you are remotely of childbearing age, you are grilled about that during the interview and that is used to decide whether you get the job or not. It's a totally different system (as we've mentioned in the other posts) but here the opportunities for women are much more limited. I really felt in the U.S. like the sky was the limit and that my success was tied to how hard I worked. Here I don't feel like that at all.
Michelle

I don't think that things are exactly perfect for women in the US or anywhere else for that matter. That said, though, one just has to look at the statistics for the number of women senior executives and professionals in Italy to see that something is seriously wrong. In the US, despite a lot of ongoing sexism at work, there are a lot more women who do manage to make it to senior positions. And when you put on the TV you don't see quite as many veline and there are role models for younger women who don't take their clothes off or wear bikinis ie Oprah Winfrey, Diane Sawyer, Cristine Amenpour, Barbara Walters etc.

Talking of elite women - I used to work for a biglaw firm in New York. Half of the incoming junior lawyers were women - many of them had been editors of the Harvard Law Review etc. As you went up the chain, more and more women dropped out from the partnership track. There were many reasons for this - some of it just plain sexist and some of it to do with the fact that (IMO) women are generally less willing to work 80 hrs a week in a job they hate purely for money/status. While the firm talked the talk there were still only 15-20% female partners (although they've made a bunch of new female partners lately.) However, 15-20% female partners is WAY more than most of the larger law firms in Italy which might have, maybe, one female partner (if that!) and that's it.

What struck me as sexist at the firm was an unwritten rule that if you were a woman and wanted to make partner you could not have a child until after you became partner. For men it was ok though! This was the case even if you went straight back to working 80 hr weeks after your 3 month maternity leave.

This article is from 2004, but it's an interesting overview, I think, of the wage gap issue on an international level:

Women's Work/ The Wages of Equality: A World of Unfinished Business

Unfortunately, I have to concur with Ramona's description of the legal profession in the US regarding women; sexism still runs strong when it's the women summer associates (Law Review staff members, mind you) who are the ones asked to fetch the coffee

Great article, Testa Dura. It's interesting that the wage gap is lower here in Italy than in the US. I'd say that's probably because no one earns much here (except politicians of course!) I do agree though that often being able to negotiate your wage, as in the US, is bad for women who tend not to negotiate as hard as the men.

My mum worked in Germany for a while and she was quite shocked at the attitude to working women with children there. Apparently there is a strong taboo against women with young children working which she thought had a very negative impact on women's careers and opportunities. She said that school ends at lunchtime and women are expected to be home to look after the kids after lunch. In Australia, on the other hand, where she normally lives, it's considered perfectly normal to have a babysitter (which is what she did with us) or put your kids in daycare (which she also did.)