Well, we all know the saying here in Italy that he who finds a friend has found a treasure. However, has anyone here found it much more difficult to make friends here in Italy? I'm talking about real friendship not the superficial friendship. I have friends or at least I thought they were my friends, but I'm beginning to question that seriously. I have one friend who is always late and never keeps her promises. However, if she needs a small loan or something, she's at my door when I wake up. I don't want to offend anyone but even some of my friends who are Italian told me that Italian female friendship don't last long. I'm begining to see the picture now. It's all superficial. I recently experienced some losses in my family and not one of them called to see if I was ok or needed something. I saw one of my friends talk horribly behind her other friends backs about their families, and then act like she's the greatest friend in the world. I've seen another friend not answer the phone when her other friends called her and then she'd tell them later that she forgot her cell phone at home. I've have friends that I went to high school and university with that I still keep in contact from the states. I can't imagine doing some of the things they do each other. If my friends call, I answer even if I'm busy just to tell them I'll call later. I was shocked by the way that some " not all" Italian women attack each other behind their backs and they are supposed to be " friends." I've recently experienced a great personal loss, and not one of them called to check on me or come to see how I was doing. Then, I have another friend who basically was tricked into making all these things for her soon to be sister-in-law who she can't stand. She hates her sister-in-law and was tricked by her, but she has cancelled numerous appointment when we had something planned to run to her sister-in-law whom she makes fun often. Frankly, I'm very angry. When one of my friend's sons went to university and didn't have money for his high tech printer, she asked me to pay half. I paid because I help friends in need, but the way some people always looks to cheat or take advantage of someone ticks me off. Also, sometimes I really do miss having to walk in a store like in the states and not having to worry if the salesclerk is going to try to swindle me out of money. Thank God for marked prices. The beautiful part is when I pay 50 euros for something and they give me the receipt marked 25 euros,to cheat a little more. Anyone ever had the superficial friendships and been cheated?

I have seen a lot of this here. There is a guy in our group of friends (whom have been friends with hubby since wearing diapers) who I had always considered to be a good friend of mine. I then found out from my BIL (who is a friend of mine) that this guy was going on and on one night about how he hates foreigners and everyone should stay in their own country. He also said that since I am American, my son (whose father is Italian and he will be born in Italy) is also a foreigner.
He then comes up to me and gives me a hug the next day like nothing has ever happened. My husband can not understand why I refuse to talk to him anymore and do NOT consider him a friend in any way.

First of all, I am sorry for your loss. Secondly, and I hate to say this, women can be no matter what nationality they are. I've dealt with bad apples both in the states and now here. You sound like a very giving person and I hate to say this (I'm not trying to offend), but it seems as if your "friends" treat you like a welcome mat!
Get used to telling people (when it comes to lending money) "Sorry, but I just don't have it" or news about your generousity will spread like wildfire and everyone will be knocking at your door for a handout...trust me!

Oh and the whole paying 50 euros and the receipt saying you paid only 25 gets my blood boiling! One of these days when it happens to me again, I will tell the clerk, if you're gonna write it out on the receipt for that price, you're gonna sell it to me for that price!

Hope things get better for you and that you can find a friend that you can feel equal to.

Giulia

I have a couple of expat friends who have been living here for 10 and 5 years respectively (one is married to an Italian, the other is studying here) and both have said they've found it really difficult to make Italian girlfriends here. These are both really warm, generous, outgoing, fun women - they've both said Italian women are just 'different'. The way they describe it is more that Italian women see other women as a potential threat (from what, who knows ) rather than a potential friend and unless you've known them since school they're not really interested in making new friends. I'd like to think that it's not the case with all Italian women, but it is interesting they both have found the same thing.

And my condolences too for your loss - it's really hard to try and deal with things like that when you're so far away from home, and especially hard if you don't have the emotional support here. In lieu of your friends asking - how ARE you doing?

Diana, I'm sorry about the guy who called your son a foreigner. He's a typical worm! I agree that us females can be no matter our nationalities. However, the difference is that kiss of death that many have here in Italy. I prefer things said and done to my face. If I can't stand someone, I barely speak to them if forced in a situation where I'm near them or I completely stay away from them. I'm not judging everyone by any means. However,in the states, England, Australia,Canada,etc when we can't stand someone we usually stay away from them,ignore them, or tell them to bug off. It's better being told to bug off then to have someone hug you and then talk trash behind your back or do something to hurt you. I discovered that many people( not all) run to " kiss " and then talk horribly behind their backs. They do it even if they have nothing to gain from the person, just to be part of the bella figura I guess. I've seen people actually see someone they hate and then run over to say hello to them. There is nothing that I hate worse than false people no matter than nationality. If there is something to be gained, then they are their with bells on. I had one friend give me a lift from work one day as my car was being repaired. It's only 4 mins out of the center of town and on the same road to her house.She dropped me off and then she asked me for 10 euro to put in her gas tank that was full. I remind you that it was me that had given her 350 euro for her university subscription three weeks earlier as her husband didn't have it and she risked to lose her last year. I also taught her, her son and her daughter without payment.It wasn't the ten euros that bothered me so much as it was the all the take and no give. I have never asked my friends to give me money to do a favor for them,ever. I would haven't done something if I had to make a profit off it. I'm kind hearted and generous and many people here have taken advantage of it. I'm half Italian, but I was raised with Karma stardards when treating people.

The receipt ticks me off too. The other night I was cheated by a saleslady whom I had been a client to for 5 years. I used to get cheated often when I didn't understand Italian or know how the pricing works here. For example, there was that time I bought 12 semi-rotten prunes for 11 euro and didn't know how to say keep them. Luckily, my hubby took them back and told him off for taking advantage of me. Anyway, the other night I saw a wool sweater marked 47 euro,and I went to purchase it. However, as I was purchasing it,one of my student's mother called me on my cell phone. I was distracted and asked the saleslady how much even though I saw how much it had cost. She told me she would make me a great deal and I only had to pay 50 euro. I being an idiot who was really distracted at that moment paid 50 euro and walked out speaking on my cell phone. When I arrived home and looked at the sweater,I couldn't even find the receipt because she hadn't given me one. I also realized that she had cheated me as well, so she couldn't give me a receipt or it would have shown she cheated me as the price was marked. I cried like a baby out of anger because I recently miscarried( thus one of my personal losses) and then to have people cheat me was more than I could bare. I returned to the shop and told her that I couldn't prove anything for the lack of the receipt, but I would never shop there again and she should be ashamed of herself. Somedays I love Italy, and somedays she makes me cry. I come from a small town where no one cheats someone because we all know each other, so when you have to worry about being cheated everyday, it's kinda of obnoxious. sorry to rant on like that.

I'm really sorry to hear about your loss. People being 's can't help.
It is unfortunate that you have to always be on the ball here when shopping, never being able to let your guard down, I can understand completely. It's harder when you don't feel like arguing and you simply just want to do your shopping without being taken for a fool.
The rotten fruit one is so old - this is one of the benefits of going to the supermarket where you can pick your own stuff - the prices are often higher than at the market, but at least you can use all the fruit/veg rather than having to bin 1/2 of it.

While I sympathise with everything being said here, I really don't see it only as 'an Italian problem'.

Everything described - every 'con' in the markets and shops, every attempt to 'short change' or 'overcharge' customers, all those extra high prices for foreign visitors...Haven't we all seen them 'back home' (wherever that might be) too?

I can remember arguing with shop keepers that I did NOT want the fruit 'from the back' but that on display at the front....
I can remember street vendors in central London charging foreign tourists (in years gone by) perhaps £1 (when they only cost 15p) for a can of Coke when there was a heat wave.
I can also remember shop keepers putting one price on a display article that was then charged differently once the 'barcode' was put through....That was (and still is) almost a full time job watching THAT con when you're buying a'load' of shopping!

And as for 'fickle friends(?)' - who wouldn't know or understand loyalty - even if it fell on them from a great height - Yeah -right.... But hey - that happens everywhere - not just in Italy.

I suppose the only answer is to be aware that there are some people who's genuine insincerity will fool us and will always be a matter of concern. It is up to us all, as individuals to make the best we can of it all, and to choose our friends wisely!

Aurora, I don't have much advice except to second the suggestions to try and be more protective of yourself, even if that's not in your nature.. Things like the 3 euro from the shopkeeper can be frustrating, but at this point I would just think "hey, how bad is HER life that she has to rip people off for 3 euro..?" If you believe in Karma, that is..

About friends.. I haven't made many but I tend to enjoy solitary activities and I mostly keep to myself. Of my husband's small circle of Italian friends and acquaintances I usually get along well with the female contingent and I would say most of them are friends that I could count on if I needed something. On the other hand, I was talking to my 30-something Italian niece, who admitted to me that she had no real friends herself (despite being very outgoing and attractive and going out quite a lot in groups --just that she couldn't say that these people were real friends).

I tend to find that here it's hard to really get to know people. An American will tell you their life story on the bus, but that doesn't happen so much here.. Why? Boh!? Fear of gossip? Fear of revealing weaknesses? I would try to get involved in some activity where maybe you can meet more sincere folks.. volunteering? Yoga classes?

Right now it will be hard since you are feeling vulnerable.. but in part you'll need to develop some calluses as far as your current 'friends' are concerned.. I hope you feel better soon, though!

The old saying says that " Chi trova un amico trova un tesoro" as you said, who finds a friend has a treasure.

Treasures are sooo hard to find, like true friendships.

I have "friends" I like to talk to, and "friends", but FRIENDS are very few, maybe 2 -one being Tania.
This doesn't mean that I bash all others, and mistreat them. I just am aware that true friends are really few

My mom always told me that real friend are more preciousthan gold, and I have come to realize why.

quote:

I had one friend give me a lift from work one day as my car was being repaired. It's only 4 mins out of the center of town and on the same road to her house.She dropped me off and then she asked me for 10 euro

And you told your friend to take a hike, I hope. Never lend money in Italy (or anywhere else, but we're talking Italy here). You will NEVER get it back. What were you people thinking, giving your hard-earned cash away? Ma ci cascate proprio...

Hey, she just needed a little help covering gas, oil, wear and tear on the car, and her contribution to the Kyoto trade-off fund of her choice. Was it worth 10 euro not having to walk the distance?

I am going to respond to this post and know from the start that I will be making gross generalizations that may offend.At the risk of appearing as a bigot or prejudiced, I will still share my experience and the guidance and advice of my 38 year old native Sicilian husband. Because one of the things that I appreciate is someone telling me the straight poop on a situation. Better to be forewarned with the "stereotypes" and find the exception.


In the south, Naples and Sicily, I am told, the advice is to act like you are sharing but give no important information that you do not want broadcast. It WILL happen it has happened to me.

I blogged about my experience of being in a small town in Sicily shortly after being married that goes into some detail about this.

getting used to a small town

My MIL has told me not to tell anyone things are good or bad , because they will try to steal your husband. Smile, nod and say everything is okay and complain about the weather, politics or the economy. Better that they think you are no happier, richer than them. Better they think you are as miserable as they.


And money, this is another subject about which I have learned the hard way

My fiance and I decided to get married and to do it in Italy, and do it quickly. The wife of his lifelong friend decided she needed to be a part of everything I did to get ready, so she came along for a lot of our bonbonierre shopping, etc. This was okay with me, I am pretty street smart and knew that no matter what we did, I was making the decisions so I wasn't bothered having her there and all her opinions.

But she did come along and was supportive. So I appreciated the company.

I realized I needed a different dress than I had selected, and when I went home I did what I could to get the dress I wanted (I had 6 weeks)
so, of course the Sicilians wanted me to arrive 10 days before the wedding and have their cousin or freind make the dress.

One woman, the wife of the Butcher for whom my fiance was working had a woman she wanted me to purchase the dress from.

The price: 1.800 Euro.

I declined, and when I did she was not happy. And retaliation came in the form of withholding salary from my fiance. It's a long story, but true. They basically stole about 60 Euro from him.

The wife of my fiance's friend suggested that I use her cousin. I declined since I really was not comfortable arriving without the dress.

Since she had been so helpful finding me a hair guy, a photographer and her daughter did my make up the morning of saving me several hundred euro, I brought her a lovely silk scarf (a gift of about $75) to thank her.

Well, of course the dress I had made needed to have some minor alteration when I arrived. So I finally did go to her cousin, who said, how come you did not have me make the dress?

I explained and everyone said, of course, of course we understand.

Now, never in my life do I commit to a service without knowing the price. You guessed it, I didn't ask this time.

My mother also had a shirt taken in a little.

This is all happening just days before the wedding.

So I return for the dress, and I am just so relieved that it is done and presumably ironed, I don't examine the dress carefully.

I ask the price. Silence. And then a long story about how money is not important to her. What do I want to pay?

This dress cost me only $900, custom made, silk charmeuse and french lace.

The alteration was minor and it could not have taken longer than an hour to complete.

I figure I will be generous and offered 50 Euro.

Dead silence and a look.

I say what do you want?

200 Euro. I was in shock. Shock.

More BS about how she doesn't care about money.

We finally agreed on 110 Euro.

I bolted out of there.

When I got home it was not ironed and the my mother's shirt was also poorly done and not ironed.

This dress traveled from NY in an overhead luggage compartment in a garment bag and was less wrinkled than when I retrieved it from la sarta (the cousin seamstress).

For all you loyal readers who have made it thus far, this where the story gets juicy, your patience will be rewarded:

Carefully maneuvering the dress into the back of his mini car, careful not to show him any of it, we go the seamstress. First we pick up our "friend". (who by the way says she could not find the cousin, blah, blah, blah.) We find the seamstress.

Who claims the it's the fabrics fault and in the States they have different irons, etc. etc.more BS.

So she and our "freind" start to lay out and iron the dress.

I am watching her like a hawk.

Everyone is very tense.
She finds a lose thread in the charmeuse. SHE PULLS IT!!!

I finally lose my temper.

I say, all in broken pre-wedding Italian...

"What are you doing!!"

"It's okay, It's nothing, it's nothing. "

This only escalates my rising temper and now I explode.

"It's time you start being honest with me. I paid you a hugh price to fix and iron this dress. You did not iron the dress the first time, and now you are ruining it. Perhaps this is not the end of the world and the dress will be fine, but it's NOT OKAY that you pulled the thread."

I was really yelling.

The "friend" pulls away and acts like I killed her mother. "what's wrong with you?" I ask

She says,"you are scaring me"

"what??!! I am upset, wouldn't you be upset? You Sicilians yell all the time, wouldn’t you be yelling if this happened to you? Can’t I shout when I am upset?”

And what happened next totally threw me for a loop.

THEY START TO CRY!!!!

Oh, if I had not been so upset and stressed from all the week’s activity, I would have started laughing. The blatant manipulation attempt.

I will fast forward here:

The dress was fine, I got married, and the “friend” and 6 of her family members came to the wedding. NOT one envelope with cash. AND the daughter who did the makeup left my makeup at her house, I could not even touch up my lipstick!

Then, my french bustle, which she may never have seen in her life, upset her, (it keeps the train off the floor) so she had to pull that thread too, saying that the dress was already defective , and not her cousin’s fault. So she ruined the dress afterall.

Apparently now in this small town, people (the whole block heard the yelling) know that this American will react to the crap that they try to pull. I don’t really care about any of this now that it over, but I do remember. And sometimes I ask when I am buying things if I am getting the American price or the Sicilian price.

This same family asked my fiance for 2.000 Euro when he returned from the States the first time.

What do you want to call it? Jealousy? Competativeness, Criminal mentality? I don’t know, but it is something. And sometimes it is directed at foreigners. We as American foreigners.

I have been told by many of my husbands friends (which of course has a much different meaning to me now) that they think all Americans have money.

And maybe this is not so true in the North, but the Calabrese and the Sicilians have quite the reputation for being shrewd. I in fact have been “flattered” by some pretty shrewd characters that I am truly a Napolitana because I don’t answer their outrageously personal questions.

As I prepare for a final move to Italy, I lament the possibility that I will not find true friends here, but look at all the crazy stories I have and will have to tell!!

Your previous message was like a snippet of an experience I had 1 year ago with my husband's aunt. Long story short, she verbally abused me for 40 minutes, and then she broke down crying. My husband, of course comforted her!!! It is totally a form of manipulation...the thing I don't get, is how people so naively fall for it here!!!! (OK my husband, at least...)

The friend situation is always difficult when you move. The problem in Rome for me, is sustaining friendships because normally the girlfriends I make don't drive (nor do I), the metro line by my house closes at 9pm, and I just don't feel comfortable being out past 11pm (without a car). The friendship usually fizzles out from lack of seeing one another. In Toronto, it was always dinner, coffee, watching movies....here, I couldn't even invite them to stayover because we don't have the space in our shoebox apt.!

quote:

As I prepare for a final move to Italy, I lament the possibility that I will not find true friends here, but look at all the crazy stories I have and will have to tell!!

Mah!

quote:

Originally posted by siciliana in training:
And sometimes I ask when I am buying things if I am getting the American price or the Sicilian price.

Been there, done that. As a matter of fact, I make it a point to tell my girls not to talk when we go out shopping! That's how sleasy some vendors can be when they hear someone speaking in another tongue, especially English! I find I have a better shopping experience when "they don't know."

quote:

Originally posted by siciliana in training:
This same family asked my fiance for 2.000 Euro when he returned from the States the first time.

Been there too! Have heard many times the same old song,"Oh, can we borrow X amount of Euros... we'll pay you back as soon as we can!" Blah, blah, blah. Then you never see your money again.

quote:

Originally posted by siciliana in training:
I have been told by many of my husbands friends (which of course has a much different meaning to me now) that they think all Americans have money.

I am so sick of people with that kind of mentality. Yeah, sure, maybe 20 years ago it was "Ohhhhh, he/she is from America!" but today, coming from America doesn't mean squat! Especially since the Euro came into the picture.


Giulia

Nadia - I also live on metro line A in Rome (which has been closed at 9pm every night for something like 1.5 years for some kind of "repairs" ). You shouldn't let the closing at 9pm thing cramp your style! There is a bus which replaces the metro after 9pm and it's pretty frequent.

I come home after 11pm on my own all the time and have only had one scary incident. You do have to deal with sleazy Italian guys occasionally (at least if you are foreign looking like me)- but that is more irritating than dangerous.

a friend is who you will call when you're in a mexican jail. a "REAL" friend will be sitting in the cell next to you saying "damn, that was fun". ha. (at least that's what i learned in the navy)..in italy, i learned "buono fidare, meglio sfidare"..
my .02 lire

You're absolutely right, Ramona...the advice you're giving is the same advice I would give to a 'foreigner' living in a strange city. I guess it's just my own fears that keep me at home after dark (I posted something a while ago about being mugged during a lovely afternoon in an Internet cafe a couple of weeks ago). Ever since 'the incident' I go to work, and come straight home. I'm not 'foreign' looking, in fact, I get mistaken for an Italian all the time but I still have weirdos (males) approaching me on buses and the subway during the daytime...I can just imagine what it would be like during the evening hours! My female colleagues have some of the same hang-ups, so we're all just spending the evenings at home. Unfortunately, my husband sometimes works nights, which leaves me at home alone. At least I have SKY. Anyway, I guess I'll just have to get over my apprehensions....

Nadia - yes you need to get over it. I know it must have been really upsetting almost getting mugged in the internet cafe but it really is not that bad out there in Rome.

My boyfriend works nights a lot of the time so I go out by myself constantly. Generally I walk home or get the night bus. It really is fine. Definitely no worse or better than in other cities I've lived in (New York and Sydney).

Yes, you get sexually harassed more here - but I really think that that is more idiotic than really threatening- besides, I find it's actually worse during the day in seemingly innocuous places like the bus or walking to work. Anyway I refuse to let a few randy idiots ruin my social life. You shouldn't either. Just exercise your normal big city caution and you'll be fine.

Without nights out with friends, life just isn't worth living anyway.