Well, I've finally decided to bite the bullet and learn the language from scratch since I have been with OH 10 years now and know nothing! OK, I can understand some conversations and watch a bit of TV and get a general idea of what they are talking about but a lot of it is guess work and the problem really are the verb tenses which I really struggle with.

I have the Michel Thomas foundation and advance courses (cheap from ebay) which I am about to start on (btw if anyone wants to get an hour trial of his courses in Italian, French, German, Spanish, Arabic etc, go to www.michelthomas.co.uk and they will send you a free trial) but I've also found a great website called www.italian.about.com which shows all verb conjugations, exercises etc.

My problem is I don't know where to start! I know I have to learn the verbs Essere and Avere first but can anyone tell me what is the best way to go about this. I have written down all of conjugation tables for these verbs and there are 18 different tables all for different tenses! My memory is atrocious and when I look at these tables I just want to give up before I start.

Out of all these 18 tables, should I concentrate on just a few very important ones or do I need them all before I can advance further. I really would like to learn the present tense, the future tense and the past tense but there seem to be a lot of tenses other than these and the website I am looking at doesn't explain very clearly what situation you use them in.

If anyone can make this a bit clearer for me I would be eternally grateful! I know it would probably be better to go for lessons but I don't have time to do that and instead I am studying in any spare time I have (1am sometimes). I know it won't be easy but at least if I know where to start it would help! At this moment in time, my aching brain is not taking anything in through panic so if I can relax a bit I know I will absorb more.

Brava! It's just a matter of learning the dang verbs. Memorising them. At this point, settle for the present and past. Once you're on top of those, tackle the future and maybe think about the imperfect. You'll go quite a long way on those four alone.

I'd go with studying in your spare time and skip the lessons. Plus you have plenty of native Italian speakers to help you out.

I've just stopped taking some lessons at a local language school. I was paying for one-on-one instruction, but was basically doing written exercises from a workbook (which I can do on my own), while the teacher worked on her organizer, went out to chat with her mates, etc. Not good value for money

Thank you Graeme! May I pick your brain further?

The tables I have in front of me are as follows:

INDICATIVE: PRESENTE, PASSATO PROSSIMO,
IMPERFETTO, TRAPASSATO PROSSIMO,
PASSATO REMOTO, TRAPASSATO REMOTO,
FUTURO SEMPLICE, FUTURO ANTERIORE

SUBJUNCTIVE: PRESENTE, PASSATO, IMPERFETTO,
TRAPASSATO

CONDITIONAL: PRESENTE, PASSATO

IMPERATIVO: PRESENTE

INFINITIVE: PRESENTE, PASSATO

PARTICIPIO: PASSATO

GERUNDIO: PRESENTE, PASSATO

Should I learn only the indicative first and if so would that be Presente, Passato Prossimo, Futuro Semplice and Imperfetto? Sorry to ask so many questions but on the about.com website it does not make it very clear when you would use the Indicative/Subjunctive/Conditional so don't know what is what aaagghhhh!

I'm wondering if I should buy one of the many verb books I see advertised but there are so many that I can't decide which one is best for simplifying the tables. I'm just desperate for that lightbulb moment when it all becomes clear, I think I have a long way to go!

Yes i'd say just learn a few tenses to start with. Of course the present tense (which they also seem to use a lot where we would use the present continuous in english) is the first one to start with. Essere and avere you need to learn but the others pretty much follow the rules which make them a lot easier.

I personally also find i hardly ever use the second person plural (ie voi). And I also hardly ever use the second person (tu) as it was too confusing remembering when to use tu or Lei. I got around this by just learning the lei form. So that cut each table down from 6 to 4 conjugations.

Here (well, in sicily) they hardly ever use the simple past, instead use the one (can't remember it's name!) that uses the past participle. EG ho fatto, ho mangato, sono andata etc. I don't even think i ever use the regular past tense!!

So in summary i'd say learn the present tense (4/6 in my case!!), the past and if you're feeling adventurous, the future (seems v simple). Also it helps once you know some that the language is rather regular (esp compared with english) so if you learn and use the rules it gets much easier.

Also doing exercises (although incredibly boring) are usually much more helpful and slightly more interesting than just memorising tables. Of course practicising with your BF would be a good start! If you get the chance to watch programmes with italian subtitles (start off with english audio) you see a lot more words and expand your vocab that way!

Also just like to add that i need to study the grammar etc properly so my views are probably different to others who followed a more traditional route. i did a 3 month beginner course before moving to Italy, which i had hoped to build on here. However there are no italian classes here and i'm hopeless at self directed study. i learnt italian using the 'deep end/ immersion/ osmosis' method ie totally lost and having to get by then miraculously knowing the words in times of need. I couldn't even tell you how many tenses there are let alone their names and uses but (apparently) i speak pretty fluently. Everyone learns differently so you have to work out a method that suits you, and the more you 'use' the language the easier it becomes.

Thanks Bill. I'm in the UK just now so only have 1 Italian speaker around me, OH but when we are in Capri I find I pick quite a lot up because I am surrounded by it. Problem is I lose anything I have learnt when I return as I don't use it. OH has Italian tv at home so when I am over at his house, I can try to pick some things up. Problem is he is trigger happy with the remote and just when I am trying to decipher what a particular person is talking about he switches channels! I like watching L'eredita and Millionaire because it has the questions on the bottom of the screen which is easier to follow when they speak too fast for me!

professoressa - thanks for your great reply. I am the same as you, not great at self study. I find I have to be really motivated (which I am at the moment) but once I get stuck on something, I get bored and want to do something else, very impatient Aries I think. OH is a bit rubbish to learn from unfortunately. He works long hours and doesn't have any patience either. He'll give me brief explanations but it often doesn't make sense to me. He's not the best person to learn from either since he speaks Neapolitan a lot of the time so when he gets into that with his friends I am lost. He also went to the "bad boys school" as he puts it and ran away so often that he does not know grammatical terms that he should have learned at school. His sister says I should not listen to him as he will teach me too many bad things (I already know that!).

I think if I was permanently in Capri, I would pick it up a lot easier, like you, with immersion. I met a couple of Russian girls in February who had been in Capri for 6 months (came over to be with older rich Caprese men who had left their wives for them, another story) and spoke Italian very well, just by living there. That was what prompted me to do this as I feel embarrassed having been going there for so long and I still can't hold a conversation. A lot of it is confidence as I don't want to make mistakes and I don't want people to laugh at me (namely OH) and sometimes I do know how to answer someone in Italian but I can't get the words out! The only day I did that was the day we got very drunk in February this year and I lost all my inhibitions! Don't want to have to get drunk every time I want to have a conversation so here I am, sober and ready to learn!

Ragazza you have made me feel so much better! My OH (English!) is constantly on my back to pick the language up faster but I find it hard to learn by myself and I didn't get on with classes - having too many other things in my day it was too big a chunk out.

My problem is conversation too, shame we aren't closer in Italy!!

quote:

Originally posted by Ragazza scozzese:
The tables I have in front of me are as follows:

INDICATIVE: PRESENTE, PASSATO PROSSIMO,
IMPERFETTO

Present (Indicative), Present Perfect, Imperfect. The first two top priority, the imperfetto probably the next most valuable after the future.

quote:

TRAPASSATO PROSSIMO,

Past Perfect. Useful, but save it for later. Eg, "I had eaten", as distinct from "I have eaten" or "I ate".

quote:

PASSATO REMOTO, TRAPASSATO REMOTO

Past Absolute and Past Anterior. Forget them unless you plan on doing a lot of writing. They're literary tenses.

quote:

FUTURO SEMPLICE, FUTURO ANTERIORE

Future and Future Perfect. The first a priority, the second less so at this stage. It's used, eg, "shall (will) have eaten".

quote:

SUBJUNCTIVE: PRESENTE, PASSATO, IMPERFETTO,
TRAPASSATO

I've been advised by all and sundry Italians around here not to worry about the subjunctive. My neighbour says a lot of Italians don't know it, and of those who do, many use it wrongly. Probably your last priority.

quote:

CONDITIONAL: PRESENTE, PASSATO

The present Conditional is very useful. I'd rank it after the imperfect in terms of priority. It's used, eg, "I would eat", "I should eat".

quote:

IMPERATIVO: PRESENTE

The Imperative is also useful but I'd rank it behind the Conditional. It's basically used for a request or command.

About the best verb book, IMHO, is "501 Italian Verbs" by John Colaneri and Vincent Luciani. Apart from conjugating the verbs for you in all their tenses, the book has good explanations on usage.

The Italian names for tenses can also be a bit forbidding. It might be worth checking out the tenses under their English names to help you make some usage connections.

EDITED to change 500 to 501 Italian verbs. I miscounted. Sorry.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Graeme,

Hi. I've attended a language school for a year, and the grammar was studied in the following order (roughly):

1 - INDICATIVE PRESENTE
2 - INDICATIVE PASSATO PROSSIMO
3 - FUTURO SEMPLICE
4 - (FUTURO ANTERIORE)
5 - IMPERFETTO
6 - DIFFERENCES BETWEEN INDICATIVE PASSATO PROSSIMO & IMPERFETTO
7 - (TRAPASSATO PROSSIMO)
8 - IMPERATIVO PRESENTE
9 - CONDITIONAL PRESENTE
10 - CONDITIONAL PASSATO
11 - PASSATO REMOTO
12 - (TRAPASSATO REMOTO)
13 - SUBJUNCTIVE PRESENTE
14 - SUBJUNCTIVE PASSATO
15 - SUBJUNCTIVE IMPERFETTO
16 - (SUBJUNCTIVE TRAPASSATO)
17 - INFINITIVE: PRESENTE, PASSATO
18 - GERUNDIO: PRESENTE, PASSATO
* PARTICIPIO: PASSATO - you don't learn it separately

I'd say those come first for their usefulness in the daily life and simplicity/difficulty. Those in brackets are comparatively less important and therefore were taught briefly.

If you study well the differences between indicative passato prossimo and imperfetto, conditional, and subjunctives, you can understand better and more importantly to express yourself more accurately.

To brush up the forms I've found the following books helpful:
501 Italian verbs by Barron's
Italian verb drills by McGraw Hill

For the usage it's less painful and more realistic to have a teacher.

It's interesting...after posting my opinion, I saw Graeme says roughly the same things.

At this point maybe it's too much for Ragazza Scozzese, but I'd like to comment on the learning of passato remoto and subjunctives. People keep saying that they aren't useful or difficult, but from my observation you do see passato remoto sometimes in newspapers and a lot in story books (and it's beautiful in that sense). Regarding subjunctives, a lot of older generation people to whom I speak to while I walk my dog do use them. The same case for formal written comunication. It's useful to know at least the "look" of them for understanding. Otherwise just like what Graeme says.

quote:

I've been advised by all and sundry Italians around here not to worry about the subjunctive. My neighbour says a lot of Italians don't know it, and of those who do, many use it wrongly. Probably your last priority.

I second that! I just spent the last two months (and 200 euro) studying the four subjunctive tenses. Sure, I can now recognize them when reading or watching an old movie, but my neighbors (both in their 70's) don't ever use it. That and conjugating pronomial verbs in all their tenses (like andarsene and avercela)- way more than I want or need to know.

I third all that! I never understand why Italian schools bog foreign students down with a load of mostly useless verb forms, and if you don't have any vocabulary or other grammar to go with them, they aren't going to be particularly useful.

Immersion: try to find a non-English speaker you can spend some quality time with and press this person to load you up on native vocabulary, meaning learn it straight off as opposed to via translation, you'll remember it much better.

Italian pronunciation has to be the easiest I've come across, but I'm not exactly worldly on this point--compared to French it's falling off a log. Italians can usually make it through the most appalling mangling of their language, but they do earnestly try to: they really like the idea you're making the effort and bend over backwards to help.

In bocca al lupo!

My problem with the subjunctive isn't so much learning the conjugations - I think they're some of the easiest to learn - but remembering it's dang usage!

OTOH, I applaud the Italian language for retaining the subjunctive. It's a glorious tense that has almost disappeared from English. Most who sing the most famous song from "Fiddler On The Roof" use it without even knowing.

There are 4 podcasts here that give a good explanation of when to use the congiuntivo.
http://tltc.la.utexas.edu/ra/index.php

"If I Were a Rich Man" uses congiuntivo imperfetto in the main clause and condizionale in the subordinate clauses.

quote:

Originally posted by Graeme:
My problem with the subjunctive isn't so much learning the conjugations - I think they're some of the easiest to learn - but remembering it's dang usage!

OTOH, I applaud the Italian language for retaining the subjunctive. It's a glorious tense that has almost disappeared from English. Most who sing the most famous song from "Fiddler On The Roof" use it without even knowing.

do you mean "I were.." 'cos if you do, you're right I never hear this in English! Isn't "I was.." what we normally say instead? "You were.." I hear and use all the time.

Hi everybody,

what an useful thread! :-)

quote:

Originally posted by professoressavanessa:
I personally also find i hardly ever use the second person plural (ie voi). And I also hardly ever use the second person (tu) as it was too confusing remembering when to use tu or Lei.

It is very easy (I hope :-): use the Tu (2nd singular) for you friends, or people you're in confidence with, or people who told you "dammi pure del tu".
Talk to all the others (panettiere, farmacista, people at the bus stop) using the 2nd plural, "dando del Voi".

quote:

Here (well, in sicily) they hardly ever use the simple past, instead use the one (can't remember it's name!) that uses the past participle. EG ho fatto, ho mangato, sono andata etc. I don't even think i ever use the regular past tense!!

Ho mangiato.
Yes, it's exactly the same thing I say about the english, you alway say "I went", that sound very innatural in italian "Io andai a scuola stamattina", well it is ok, but is much more used "sono andato a scuola stamattina" or just "sono andato" without io.
In the everyday life I realized (could be wrong, pls correct me) is to use the past in place of the present perfect: "Ho mangiato"->I ate, "Sono andato"->I went, etc...

If could help , I alway use this site for the verbs:
http://www.garzantilinguistica.it

HTH, ciao.
--
Giovanni

It might be the time of day, but this lot makes my head spin! Why not just move over to Capri where you'll learn more in a few weeks there than you'll learn in months of studying

In spoken Italian the passato prossimo is far more common, and as one Italian friend put it, the remoto is quite ugly to the ear by comparison. Sono andato is much more fluid than andai: one major reason it appears in written and not spoken. That said, remoto is far more prevalent as spoken in the south, where Italian tends to adhere to a more Latin standard.

Conditional and subjunctive are hard for native speakers of English to get heads round since they involve two tenses that have pretty much disappeared in English: we tend to use the past simple and a slew of modals to get us through all the expressions of real or imaginary time (If I were a rich man). Italian is a challenge for us because function follows form, and in English it's exactly the opposite.

On the Lei/tu conundrum: get used to both. It will make a big difference on how people who have taken a shine to you deal with you. If you stick rigidly to Lei, you will quickly be perceived as a snob, a fusspot, or simply a foreigner. If you start out with tu when it's clearly inappropriate, you will be seen as a jerk, an ignoramus, or simply a foreigner. Italians get into tu pretty quickly and it's usually a sign they like you and feel comfortable with you. I can add this is far preferable to France, where if you haven't been together since either birth or at least kindergarten, forget it! So go wid da flo.

quote:

Originally posted by alyson:
do you mean "I were.." 'cos if you do, you're right I never hear this in English! Isn't "I was.." what we normally say instead? "You were.." I hear and use all the time.

Yes, you hear "If I was" a lot. Apart from being wrong in the strict grammatical sense, it also sounds awful, I think. The subjunctive "If I were" is much more melodious.

"Were", as in "you were", is also just a plural of "was".

"Be that as it may" is another example of the subjunctive in English that most people don't realise they're using.

A dictionary I am finding really useful is "The Oxford Pocket Italian Dictionary PLUS". The Plus is very important. This dictionary is aimed at both English people learning Italian AND Italians learning English. So in the back they have verbs, tenses, adjectives etc. but for both languages! It means, if your reading Italian is good enough,(the English grammar being in Italian with English examples) that you can actually see and read the differences between the two sets of Grammar, which when you are struggling to find a similarity can be useful, I think.

For a text for grammar, I'd highly recommend "Basic Italian Grammar" by C.A. McCormick. It's actually Australian in origin, first published back in the 1960s, reprinted many times, and it's by far the most used text in teaching in Australia. It introduces you to the grammar of the language, chapter by chapter, in a logical process with plenty of accessible explanation and examples.