Subtitling is a very good resource. Quite a few Italian TV shows are subtitled for the hearing-impaired. Watching with the subtitles activated lets you read and listen at the same time, handy when either the dialogue is rapid-fire or the diction isn't clear. Of course, by necessity, subtitles can't always match the exact dialogue, but the sense, at least, is conveyed.

quote:

Originally posted by Delina:
It might be the time of day, but this lot makes my head spin! Why not just move over to Capri where you'll learn more in a few weeks there than you'll learn in months of studying

I agree with Delina. Italian is a simple and easy language (OK - true confessions- I studied Russian before Italian - now that's a language where you need to study a ton of grammar before saying anything! - Italian isn't like this - the grammar is simple and easily picked up from just talking and reading) I studied for a month or so when I first moved here but since then have just learnt by living here, reading Italian, watching TV ( ) etc. My grammar is not the best but everyone understands me and I can say what I want, function at work etc. I probably should study the congiuntivo etc and will one day when I've got the time.

But really - just come over here for a month or two and hang out with your OH's family on Capri. Read the paper on the beach, pick up a Danielle Steele novel (or Harry Potter) in Italian. A much more enjoyable way to learn than burying yourself in grammar books. You'll probably find yourself looking up every second word at first and not being able to join in the conversation around the dinner table but after a while you'll catch on.

As far as essential grammar - just study the most used tenses (present, future, past simple)and learn the past participle (mangiato, letto, messo, andato/a - whatever those things are called) for 20 or so of the most common verbs (ie so you can form the past simple). Any beginner's Italian textbook should have a list. Then just start speaking.

Is the reason you haven't learnt Italian up to now because OH's relatives all speak English? If so, tell them that they are not allowed to speak English with you any more (and OH is not allowed to translate) and stick to your guns. To me the most important part of language learning is just jumping in and making mistakes. Remember, your OH probably made the same mistakes in English when he first moved to Scotland.

PS- if your OH laughs at you when you make a mistake in Italian he's a complete stronzo - seriously. But I'm assuming that you're just afraid he'll laugh and in reality he'd probably support your efforts to learn his language and help you study.

OK, confession time: you know what really kick-started my moving off that famous language plateau and into bilingualism? Topolino. No kidding. My daughter was an avid fan--it boosted her reading skills like nobody's business--but I got into them, and wow! The grammar is impeccable, they are stuffed to the eyeballs with nifty vocabulary, and because it's all in comic strip format, you can suss out what's being said.

And if you think being seen with your nose in a comic book will bring on ridicule, fear not: Italians of all ages are avid comic book readers. You'll actually get some respect, especially if you say it's helping you learn Italian.

quote:

Originally posted by filomena:
OK, confession time: you know what really kick-started my moving off that famous language plateau and into bilingualism? Topolino. No kidding. My daughter was an avid fan--it boosted her reading skills like nobody's business--but I got into them, and wow! The grammar is impeccable, they are stuffed to the eyeballs with nifty vocabulary, and because it's all in comic strip format, you can suss out what's being said.

And if you think being seen with your nose in a comic book will bring on ridicule, fear not: Italians of all ages are avid comic book readers. You'll actually get some respect, especially if you say it's helping you learn Italian.

I know that Nicki has said that she learned Italian from children's books - not that different from what you did!
Me? I just threw myself into it. After about a month of self-studies I watched my first Italian movie without subtitles. I understood about 2% of it, if that, but it's a good way to practice your hearing comprehension. Full immersion - for you it's so much easier because of your Italian OH, for me I had to listen to radioitalia.it... right now I'm watching Rai Uno and I can't say that I understand it all or even most of it but I'm not completely lost.

Last year in Positano we had this weird three-language discussion where I spoke Swedish to my husband, English to Nicki and Italian to her Italian OH. Believe it or not but it was quite efficient and I think I learned more about Italian conversation in that discussion alone than I've learned in the three years I've studied Italian by myself. I think I simply shocked the hell out of my brain by exposing it to three languages at once so that it had to let down all the barriers and let the languages flow just to keep up. Oftentimes the thing blocking us from being as good as we can be is our fear of making mistakes.

I agree with the others. Some of the most basic grammar is necessary, but believe me - being too focused on grammar can actually be more of a disadvantage because then you become too focused on creating grammatically perfect sentences than on becoming comfortable using the language in question.

quote:

being too focused on grammar can actually be more of a disadvantage because then you become too focused on creating grammatically perfect sentences

LOL! Tell me about it--when I first got to Italy I would spend ages carefully constructing a sentence, to be responded to with a Che? My roommate would come out with the most mangled, tortured stuff and they always understood her. Used to drive me nuts.

quote:

Subtitling is a very good resource. Quite a few Italian TV shows are subtitled for the hearing-impaired.

Thanks for the reminder, Graeme. I finally figured out how to get subtitles on my TV tonight, just in time to watch Comisario Montalbano, and for the first time I could actually follow everything that was going on! Usually I get confused in all the plot twists and turns and rapid-fire arguments. The subtitles really do make a difference.

Ramona, stronzo was one of the first words I ever learned, I couldn't have a conversation but I knew what a stronzo was! OH told me about a rhyme stronzo o stronzo (can't remember the rest) but it stuck with me. Maybe it's because there are so many stronzo's floating about the sea in Capri in the summer that it is a word I will never forget. Yes, he can be a big stronzo sometimes and has laughed at some of my attempts which put me off, but that is just the way he is. One of his daughters' is also trying to learn the grammar with me as she is in the same position, can understand quite a bit but cannot put a sentence together properly. He laughs at her also. We gang up on him though. Last week she said something in the restaurant in Italian and he laughed because she made mistake. She was making this hand signal behind him (to put politely man pleasuring himself!) and we were all saying "that's why we don't learn because you laugh at us". His ex who still works in the restaurant (another long story) though says the number cinque as chingquay in a Glaswegian accent and he says nothing! Makes me pazza!

Last year when I came over for 6 weeks in July, I was on my own for almost a week so I had to get by. I made a real effort and instead of trying to make people understand me in English I made terrible attempts at Italian. One of OH's sister's speaks no English and she is on the beach every day. I sat with them every day on the beach and had weird conversations but we understood each other. That was when the confusion about arrivare and arrivato came about because I was trying to say I arrived last Sunday but OH will arrive next week. We got there eventually though. His other sister speaks English very well but her husband speaks no English so when I am at home with them we have the strange Italian/English combination. Last Christmas, we spent most nights at their house with the rest of his family and that is when I learned numbers by playing Tombola! They made me be the caller a couple of times which was hysterical as I was getting my 60's and 70's mixed up and people were shouting Tombola because I called the wrong number! I found that invaluable though as no one was speaking in English so I just soaked it all in so I'm ok with the numbers now. Going off the language subject slightly, I love that game now. When we go up to his sisters, she uses coffee beans for markers but when they all came to us for New Year they brought the cards down but we had no coffee beans, so we had to use my pot pourri as markers. There were ten of us (mostly men) sitting there all serious with flower petals, acorns and leaves as markers.

I am quite happy to have people speaking Italian rather than them speaking English, some apologise for speaking in Italian but I say please carry on because it helps me to understand. The problem is as I've said before, I find myself picking things up but when I return to Scotland I forget again because I am not using it. As I was saying, I had conversations with all the old women who go down to the beach early morning when I was on my own and I really felt I was making progress talking about the dirty water etc!

OH is being more patient with me just now, maybe because I am making more of an effort so he is answering all of my questions.

I've heard that reading children's books and comics are good for learning so next time I'm over I'll have to pick a couple up. Actually the man in our local salumeria suggested it when I was in buying some cheese. He is in his 70's and speaks several languages and is trying to master his English so when I go in, he asks me how do you say....? in English and he in turn tells teaches me some Italian! Lovely man with the patience of a saint!

I've found a website with live Italian streaming from RAI News 24 (www.iTV.com) so when I am not at OH's I can have that on in the background. I checked out the podcasts that Bill mentioned and found I already have that site as one of my favourites, just hadn't used it yet and the other site mentioned for the verbs, I have registered now so that looks a good one for verb conjugations. I bought the 501 verbs that was mentioned from ebay yesterday for £2.00, bargain, and I already have another, Hugo's simplified verbs book (ebay 99p) so I'm just about ready, highlighter pen in hand marking off important stuff! I'm going to take all your advice though, not bog myself down with too much, learn the critical ones first and go from there.

Giovanni, my sympathies are with you. Learning English in Dublin will be as difficult as learning it in Scotland, Scottish and Irish people generally speak very quickly so good luck!

I too learnt Italian from scratch. None of DH's family speak English and I was desperate to learn what they were saying in front of me - particularly his female friends, one of whom dared to say what a shame it was he was no longer with his ex! I managed to understand that comment, and that really gave me a spurt to learn asap!

I didn't do a course, but found 2 books very useful and studied at home after work: Advanced Italian Course by Hugo, and for grammar, Azione Grammatica! which is a large book but well written and has lots of exercises.

It also helped that I bought DH Italian satellite TV for his football for our London house and really watching TV, especially as Italian TV tends to be quite simple, shall we say, really helped.

Oh, and I read books. Not comics, but things like Agatha Christie. I love AC and the language is pretty simplistic. Sounds laborious, but I would read with a pencil underlining words I didn't know and once the chapter was read, I'd then look up the words.

I guess it took me about 3 years to become fluent. I'm still not perfect on the grammar but I've reached a point where I can follow everything and make myself understood.

Only downside to learning Italian was that I lost my French. Can still read and understand, but for some strange reason have lost the ability to say even the most simple things as the Italian words come out instead!

quote:

Originally posted by Ragazza scozzese:

OH is a bit rubbish to learn from unfortunately. He works long hours and doesn't have any patience either. He'll give me brief explanations but it often doesn't make sense to me.

Ha ha ha I don't know anyone who has an italian OH that IS good at this. Mine doesn't laugh at me but his explanations are more confusing that the corrections. This is one of the reasons we speak english to each other! Funny thing though, i never had any issues with speaking in italian to italians. Even though my grammar was (and probably still is in parts) rubbish i just blurted everything out. You really do just have to give it a go.

Some other things I have thought of that helped me when i first arrived are listening to the radio (esp if you are just pottering around the house) and also looking at all the advertising. I know some german friends of mine knew all sorts of english words which they'd learnt by reading the junkmail!! Actually at our house here we don't get any junkmail and i miss it! I am an avid junkmail reader and used to know where all the good bargains were to be had. Now i have to be content with the ads on what should be the bus stop signposts!

My very first visit to visit OH's family, i couldn't speak a word of italian and they could not speak any english. I spent a lot of time with his ancient uncles (old men always have so much time here!!) drawing family trees. That is how I learnt essere. She is my sister, he is my brother, they are my uncles etc. Was highly entertaining. Of course I had a phrase book and a dictionary to help me. But i can still remember that conversation clearly. If you like cooking (i would rather be at the beach personally!!), spending time in the kitchen with the other women is a good way to learn lots of verbs as they are generally busy doing stuff! It is also a good way to learn the present continuous if you get them to explain what they are doing.

Also you mention you hear a verb but don't know what tense it is in. For this I used a pen and piece of paper. I drew time lines. Marking 'now' and pointing to a spot in the past or future. For anything continuous i simply extended the line instead of making just a dot. You can also use a calendar for this if the people you are chatting to don't get it!

I had a few days at the beach with my SIL who knew v basic english. We carried out quite a nice conversation in halting english and italian, passing the phrase book and dictionary back and forth and drawing pictures. It was a lot of work but v rewarding and fun. Kind of like a multi lingual pictionary game.

Something else i remember now was probably one of the only tables i rote learned. The conjugations for must, want and can. That way you don't need to conjugate all the other verbs!
That really helped my speaking. Once i knew them, everything was 'devo + verb infinitive' or 'vorrei + infinitive' or 'posso + infinitive?' which made things SO much easier. Can be used for now or anytime in the future. In fact, because of this i probably don't even know how to conjugate a lot of verbs as i used this lazy method. Still do....

All this learning is v tiring so sometimes I was just too tired. Especially in the evenings. I would just switch off. Sometimes it is enough to just get the gist as well. Sometimes you get things a bit wrong but it is still good practice just sitting and listening/ not listening.

I used to go EVERYWHERE with my notebook (+pen), phrasebook and dictionary. I remember when i first went out without them i felt almost naked but so liberated. And making mistakes is how you learn more.

quote:

Actually at our house here we don't get any junkmail and i miss it!

I get junkmail from Sky, local businesses, politicians and charities. I never thought about it before, but they do probably help with building vocabulary. My wife tosses them in the trash though, so I have to try and get to them first.

quote:

Originally posted by gdbjoe:
If could help , I alway use this site for the verbs:
http://www.garzantilinguistica.it
Giovanni

Thanks for the link! I checked out their Grammaweb and the first exercise had the lyrics to "Alba chiara" with fill in the blanks for the nouns at the end of each line. I downloaded the song from iTunes and cheated, but I learned several new words in the process.
That one's definitely getting bookmarked.

Buonasera tutti! Just to let you know how I am getting on so far and to let anyone else like me who is learning from the beginning, there is light at the end of the tunnel!

I am halfway through my Michel Thomas foundation course - it's really good, highly recommend it for comprehension. I'm not good with my memory, in one ear and out the other, but surprisingly this is sticking with me. For anyone just starting out, try it (buy it cheap from fleabay though, quite expensive). I did (and still do) have a sticking point when it came to the la, lo, gli, le, etc etc, all pronouns basically and one of the cd's I kept having to play over and over again and it still wasn't sinking in. I was literally slapping myself and screaming as I made the same mistakes over and over, the laptop was nearly out the window at one point. Now I'm onto the I Will, I would, I could and sort of having a lightbulb moment which got me quite excited. I think when I initially looked at all the verb conjugations I got a fright because I thought how can I remember all of these but now that I know you use virtually the same endings for the different tenses, well, things are not looking so bad now.

I am using the book 501 Italian Verbs and making my own notes in my own way that I understand. Also using about.com and the various other websites recommended to get more info to back up the cd's is quite good.

I think my pronunciation is ok since I'm used to hearing a lot of these words but one word which I've come across and I think I will not be using that one is Preparare. Preparare is ok but when you get into the I will prepare, I could have prepared, OMG, I was saying pleplelele, plerplelei, couldn't get it. I even said to OH last night, how do you say I will prepare it, even he got it wrong. I will just say, I'm doing it, that is much more simple.

Anyway, thought I would just share that with you and thank you for all your support. Ok, off now to do some more studying.

quote:

Originally posted by Graeme:
Subtitling is a very good resource. Of course, by necessity, subtitles can't always match the exact dialogue, but the sense, at least, is conveyed.

Unless you happen to be watching 'Little Britain' on MTV. Original English with Italian subtitles. Surreal and wonderful !

Ragazza Scot - stick with Michel Thomas. His method really works ! (You on the basic 2-disc intro course - or full 8-disc intro ? You've got the delights of a 4-disc 'Advance Course' and then a 2-disc 'Language Builder' to come. Cheap on eBay.) I found doing first 8 discs...and then whipping thru them again before the Advance Course really helped. As did booking some 'conversational Italian' lessons at local language school.

I notice this on many subtitled DVDs as well. The subtitles are often completely different statements, with different meaning, than the dialogue in the movie.

I didn't noticed it particularly on DVD, rather on the telly. Sometimes the actor speaks in a more conversational way and the subtitles is fairly formal. Other times the subtitles are correct in the choice of verbs, while the actor "canna un congiuntivo".

I find English subs more accurate, in the wholly, but it might be that I don't know English so well to notice when the actor speaks differently.

I despair of Italian subtitles, and wonder who they are paying to do them. I'd already watched that wonderful film, the Lives of Others, on DVD in German with English subtitles. They then showed it on Italian Sky Cinema, dubbed of course into Italian. I put the Italian subtitles on too and watched with OH. The final sentence in the film is very poignant, where the ex Stasi buys the book and tells the assistant 'it's for me' (this is the correct English translation from the German). Having a double meaning of course that the book was DEDICATED to him, just that he was buying it for himself and not as a present. The Italian subtitles and dubbing have him saying 'lo prendo per me' which - unless I am wrong - just means that he was buying it for himself. Totally missing the point that the book was dedicated to him (the author would have been in prison if not for him).

Anyway - rant over. I was just so incensed that the poor translation had ruined the most emotional line of the film.

It's a shame that in Italy they don't watch films in original language with subtitles, but insist on dubbing. You totally lose out on the actor's voices and nuances. It's also a good way to improve your Italian by reading the subtitles. I watch loads of foreign films, particularly French, and always in VO with English subtitles. OH can't bear to watch this way so I always watch these films alone. Equally I go mad when he watches something on Sky Cinema with the Italian dubbing. Luckily on Sky Cinema you can change the language back to VO.

Unfortunately any translation of a foreign movie/book cannot give justice to the original, be it in Italian, Fench - or English.

A while ago I had the occasion to watch on a channel on the satellite dish two movies dubbed in English, La vita è Bella and Amarcord.
They were so poorly dubbed I just switched off the TV and watched it on DVD - in Italian.
Chia

La Vita e Bella was shown in the UK in Italian with English subtitles. If you rent it, it comes in Italian. In fact, if you go to the cinema here, all foreign films are shown in VO with subtitles, never dubbed. You must have come across a channel destined for English-speakers in other countries where dubbing is perhaps the norm.

DeeBee - I've got the 10 disc foundation course (2 cd's are a review of the whole course) and I'm on the 6th cd so getting there slowly but surely. I also got the advanced course and the vocabulary course from the same seller for just over £50 for all of them so considering the normal price I thought that was quite a bargain (and they were originals, not copies). I like the way he teaches as most of it makes sense. I've come across a couple of things that have confused me like when he says you put di after a noun and before a verb. The examples I'm on at the moment don't appear to me as obvious nouns (bisogno) as I thought a noun was a thing but that just goes to show I maybe need to brush up on my English grammar! What did you think of the man on the discs - I find myself shouting at him as he is such a smart a*** , Michel Thomas asks him to say one thing and he says it then he says "Or you could say", I'm shouting at the laptop "He asked you for one answer, why are you giving him something else!". I think he just does it to show up the other girl on the cd (like look at me I know lots of ways to say, hahaha). If I was in a class with him I would be saying "Shut the **** up" Pardon my French.

As for dubbing, I haaate it! It ruins the whole film for me. OH and I love Columbo and when it's on in Italy, we just can't watch it with the stupid man they use for Columbo's voice, it totally ruins the humour of the programme. I have La Vita e Bella on dvd and it's in Italian with English subtitles and I think that's what they should do with all foreign films otherwise they are ruined by dubbing. We also have La Cage aux Folles which is I think originally in French (can't remember though as haven't watched it in a while) with Italian and English dubbing. I tried to watch it in English and it was rubbish so put it back to the original with subtitles.

Bisogno is a "thing" when it is a noun e.g. a need (although often in Italian the article "a" isn't used). Think " I have a need for speed"

Like "need" in English though it can also be used as a verb and followed by a verb in the infinitive e.g. bisogna andare.

Hope that helps!