My husband and I will be moving to Sicily (specifically, Marsala) in 2 months. A friend of mine recommended getting a Sicilian-American dictionary, rather than an Italian-American dictionary. She says that Sicilian is almost a completely different language, and we won't understand most of what they say and vice versa if we're just using regular Italian. Is this true? We have been studying Italian, and want to be prepared as much as possible for life in Sicily. We're coming over to secure our housing in a week and a half, too, and we want to have a lot of basic words and phrases down before arriving. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

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A friend of mine recommended getting a Sicilian-American dictionary, rather than an Italian-American dictionary. She says that Sicilian is almost a completely different language, and we won't understand most of what they say and vice versa if we're just using regular Italian. Is this true?

I would definitely get the dictionary as it may come in handy. My wife and I visited Italy in 1998 when my daughter spent her junior year abroad (actually year plus one day) studying in Firenze. She had such a command of the Italian language that the little old ladies, natives of Firenze, would think that she was one of them. I guess that the transit people would change bus stops for a few weeks and Angela would explain to the ladies why the bus was not coming. We traveled to Sienna, Maranello, Roma, Napoli, etc on our way to Sicilia and there really wasn't any problem with the language and Angela.

We eventually got to Sicily and she had no problems in the cities or talking to younger people. In Bisaquino Angela was asking directions from a Police officer and he insisted on speaking to the man, her Father, little old me because he was sure that I could speak better Italian because I was an adult. He didn't believe her when she said that I didn't speak Italian until he came over to the window to talk to me. After that they were able to converse with a little bit of effort. Our next trying event was in Ribera, my Great Grandfather's town. Ribera is known for strawberries. We bought some from a cart in a parking lot and they didn't seem any better than the ones our neighbor, in Connecticut, used to grow. A while later we stopped in a bar for a cafe and we mentioned our disappointment in the berries we bought. The beautiful blue eyed blonde from one of the Eastern European countries (Poland?) told us about some farmers out of town that sold the best strawberries that she had ever eaten. Also, the very tiny berries were the sweetest of all. At the farm stand there was an old couple, mid to late 70's, and Angela didn't understand a word either of them was saying as they were speaking Sicilian. We figured that the couple was born on the farm and probably have lived there their whole lives. I don't think that you will be totally shut out with only knowing Italian. In most of the cities you will also find people that speak English and they will want to talk to you in English to better their English skills.

My Father was a Neopolitan and spoke Neopolitan at home and with his family. He studied Italian at school in New York City and went to Medical school at the University of Naples. But after 50+ years of knowing my Mother and her family he never did master Sicilian. This information came from my 95+ year old Sicilian uncle who was married to my Father's sister and my Mother's younger sister (only 88 years old). My Father isn't around to ask but I don't think that I was lied to. Finally, my Uncle is Sicilian and not Italian and he will tell us so and the same goes with Neopolitans they are Neoplolitans 1st and then maybe they admit to being Italians!!


Sorry for the long way to say yes buy it.

As someone who lives in Calabria, I'd say yes to getting the dictionary simply because it will never go to waste. You'll undoubtedly hear some words that you can't find in your Italian dictionary (which can be *very* frustrating), and you'll, at the very least, be curious to know what they mean.

That said, most Italians, even in the rural south, will understand you when you speak standard Italian (if they don't, it's more likely because of your accent).

Be forewarned, though, that in villages, the older residents, in particular, may respond to you in dialect. No need to worry, however, as even when you don't understand, they'll keep explaining until you do...and you'll learn to be *very* creative in getting your point across too!

Overall, knowing some basic Sicilian words won't hurt, but it's not as if without them, you won't find a place to live, food to eat, etc.

My advice is to keep plugging away on the Italian and get the Sicilian dictionary as back-up!

In bocca al lupo!

Mille Grazie! I'm off to find a Sicilian-American dictionary today. Crepi il lupo!

hello Mrs. Jay,
Actually, they love it when you speak 'Italian' not Sicilian. My husband was born in Sicily, raised there until he was 21 before he came to the states. Now when he goes back for visits, they make fun of him when he speaks Sicilian. My daughter is married to a Sicilian boy from Palermo and it drives him nuts when she says a word in Sicilian. So, learning the Italian would be better for you I think. I always get scolded when I use Sicilian words instead of Italian..... Kinda sad though. I even got corrected by a YOUNG girl at a store in Taormina. I said edu, instead of lui.

If you haven't already found this website, you might find it interesting. If you poke around it, you'll find a very good explanation of the Sicilian languge and how it differs from Italian (double Ls turned to Ds, changing word endings to U, etc.).

http://www.arbasicula.org/

Mrs_Jay: make sure that you get the dictionary for the right area of Sicily. Being Sicilian a dialect, words and pronounciations are quite different in the various areas: consider that in some regios there are dialects that cannot communicate (like Bergamasco and Mantovano her ein Lombardy!).

Stephanie, your comment is very encouraging, as it's hard enough to learn one language right now, let alone two. I truly hope that Italian is used over Sicilian in both Marsala, where we'll be living, and in Trapani, where my husband will be working. Of course, he's worked there before, and had few problems, and he didn't speak even Italian.

Joe, thanks for the link to that website! I hadn't seen that one before. I'm anxious to read many of the articles.

Alice, I have not seen anything but a basic Sicilian-American Dictionary. I haven't seen any at all for different dialects. Maybe I'll find one when we get there. Luckily, I just found out that my husband's company will be paying for language training once we arrive, and I'm sure our instructor will know whether or not we truly need to learn Sicilian or not, and if so, which dialect. They're also providing us with a translator when we come over for our housing trip next week, so I won't have to worry about whether or not I'm saying the right thing.

Thanks, again, to all of you for your help. I can't wait to come over next week! If there are any board members that live in Sicily, we'd love to meet up with you for lunch or dinner or something. Like I said, we'll be in Marsala and Trapani mostly, but will also be staying a night in Palermo. We're looking forward to meeting some other expats.

Ms Jay!!! Have fun!!!!! You will be just fine. The people are so helpful and nice. September is a beautiful month there, still warm enough to enjoy the sea....but cools off at night so you can sleep.

Believe me, you need Italian first and foremost. Itlaian is the national langauge, you will need Italian for dealing with bureaucracy, watching TV and reading newspapers, for instance. As others confirmed, most people (except the oldest) know Italian, but in the cities not everybody knows the dialect. By asking whether you need to learn Italian or Sicilian you do more or less the same as I would do asking if I neded to learn English or Cajun before moving to New Orleans. Get a headstart and start learning some Italian now, this is my suggestion.

Sicily IS Italy so almost every sicilian can speak italian I have lots of sicilian friends and except for a little accent, their italian is much more bettr than mine...

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Originally posted by Mrs_Jay:

Alice, I have not seen anything but a basic Sicilian-American Dictionary. .

I'd really wonder about that. Is it a Sicilian to US dictionary? Or is it the Sicilian that might be spoken in the US? If it's the second it's likely a mix up of the various Sicilian dialects with the the largest population groups getting the biggest representations.

By all means get a Sicilian-American dictionary if you want to know the meaning of the odd word, but make sure you learn Italian first. I too have an enormous Leccese-Italian dictionary but I hardly use it. Husband’s family use the odd word but it’s actually considered rather provincial to use dialect rather than Italian – the snobbism factor. I remember my cognato’s wedding video where his bride and her family were all speaking dialect to each other and my husband and suocera were saying how provincial this was of them.

I can understand a fair bit of Leccese dialect now but really don’t need to speak it – Italian does just fine.

My wife and I lived in Marina di Ragusa (loved it) for six months. We found that knowing Italian was essential outside of the tourist areas. However, we did not need to learn Sicilian. Nearly everyone there speaks standard Italian, even the older folks, but when they are among themselves or want to have a private coonversatin they will shift into Sicilian. We asked many of the people we met , mostly in their 40's, about the Sicilian Language. They usually responded that they can read and write in Sicilian but their children speak it but are not learning to write it.
I would suggest that you concentrate on improving your Italian and not concern yourself with Sicilian until after you are there for a while.

We were usually successful communicating with the old guys in the square while they asked the standard questions. Where were we born? Why were we in Sicily? For how long? Did we know thier son/nephew/ friend ...etc? What is Brooklyn like?

Don't let anyone scare you about life in Sicily we found the people there to be absolutely wonderful.

Do not miss the south east section of the country it is the least touristy and where we spent most of our time.

take a look at our blog between Dec 2005 and May 2006 for tips and photos

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Originally posted by Bob and Rosemary:
They usually responded that they can read and write in Sicilian but their children speak it but are not learning to write it.

Notice please that Siilian is not a language, it's a dialect. One of the mai differences between a langauge and a dialect is that the language does have a substantial body of written literature, while the dialect do not. While Sardinan(s) and, to a lesser degree, Neapolitan do have a written literature, Sicilian as well as the other dialects only have quite small and incospicous contemporary (or modern) written literature. The last writers to use Sicilian dialects as their main mean of expression date back to the XVII or XVIII century, with only a few sporadic cases of written Sicilian dialect works dating to the XIX and XX century. In other words, people don't read and write dialects, which only have folkloric and oral literature. People read and write laguages. And Sicilian is a dialect.

wikopedia info on Sicilian as language

What makes a language a language is an interesting debate. For example, the only language written in Western Europe before the printing press was latin, and the argument that if a language does not have literature written, it is not a language and every word spoken would then have to be considered a dialect. So, italian was a dialect until it was written down.

The notion that a codified system of verbal communication with grammar, vocabulary and all parts of speech that others recognize and are able to respond to in kind, is not a language is very interesting.

I would venture to say that only if a system of discourse is written down, even if it came after the other systems of discourse it carries the status of language. Sounds to me that those with the power and the money, ergo education and means of disseminating information, get the privilege of designating whatever they want as language.

Sounds political to me, and to this author as well.
dialect or language?
This same organization of linguists actually states that the criteria for distinguishing a language from a dialect is not as Alice has indicated. what makes a language?



There are several academic authorities which consider Sicilian a language and not a dialect of Italian.

]URL=http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=scn]



online course in sicilian

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Originally posted by siciliana in training:
For example, the only language written in Western Europe before the printing press was latin

Not completely true. By the time printing press was made popular in the XVI century (it was invented in the late XV century) Itlay had already seen several non-latin written literary explosions, starting with the sicilian poets (Giacomo da Lentini, Ruggieri d'Amici, Odo delle Colonne, Rinaldo d'Aquino, Arrigo Testa, Guido delle Colonne, Pier della Vigna, Stefano Protonotaro, Mazzeo di Ricco, Jacopo Mostacci, Percivalle Doria, Re Enzo, Federico II, Giacomino Pugliese, Cielo d'Alcamo, Tommaso di Sasso, Giovanni di Brienne, Compagnetto da Prato e Paganino da Serzana; not all of tem from Sicily, not all of them wwwriting in the Sicilian "volgare"), which in turn evolved into the "dolce stil novo" poetry and further on in Dante, Petrarca and so on. As a matter of fact, by the introduction of the press first in Rome and later in Venice, Italy had already a well-established tradition of written poetry in, uh, non-latin. What is not disputable is that these lanaguages were not Italian, infact they are called "vulgar", and they are rather non-homogenous. it must be said tht the first documents written in vulgar are four official declarations called "Placiti cassinesi" dating between 960 and 963 that assessed a litigation about the boundaries of the lands belonging to the Montecassino monastry. (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placiti_cassinesi)

Without entering the "Is Sicilian a language or a dialect?" debate, here is a great site for learning Sicilian online:

http://www.linguasiciliana.org/grammatica_file/course.htm

Alice I will accept your info, I was playing it a little fast and loose with the only written language issue, And this information is quite interesting.

Whether or not a language is a language rather than a dialect, is an interesting question, and not changed in either way by your information.

An interesting question however, and highly charged in fact, since the issue of political and economic influences plays quite strongly in this linguistic history.

My criteria for a language might include : Rules of grammar, a fairly consistent vocabulary, and in the case especially with Sicilian, an ability to trace influences -- more than one. SIcilian has evidence of many languages, french,and the arabic languages to name a few. In this case for me, it is not just a dialect from the italian.

It developed over time, has a structure, a perceptible and recognizable grammatical structure and vocabulary, and a body of literature.

Just because the current use of Sicilian may not be actively producing written literature, does not in my opinion demote it from language to dialect. In fact, it is more a testimony to the argument of some linguists that languages become endangered. Sicilian in this regard may be considered endangered, but it does not change history, if in fact Sicilian existed as a language prior to the development of italian as a language, which in my understanding would be necessary for it to qualify as a dialect of italian.

I am not a linguist. I will leave it to them to debate. But I am compelled as a student of history to recognize if some thing/event/phenomenon etc came AFTER another event, the event coming after could not be the cause of the prior event/phenomenon/ thing etc.

Thanks for the interesting thread.

My family is sicilian, and I can hardly understand them. I can pick up some things, and I have asked them about certain points of the dialect just so I can follow, but if I attempt to speak it at all, they would just laugh. It's not the kind of thing foreigners learn, it is the dialect of those that are born there.

That's not to say it couldn't be learned, though I am sure every sicilian would tell you that it is impossible to learn unless you are born there. But I just think the idea is kind of wrong. Understanding it is good, but it's not your place to try and speak it.
I admit that I may be wrong on this point, I am not trying to live there, and maybe with time, they would actually come to accept my speaking it with them, but as it is now....... it just doesn't seem right to even try. Stick to Italian to communicate with them. Try to understand the dialect as much as possible.

I in fact, always get frustrated when there. The family insists on speaking to me first in Sicilian, laughing at me when I don't understand, and then explaining what they said in Italian. I also have several cousins that are sicilian heritage, but born and raised in Milan, and I understand them fine.

Usually the younger kids will translate the dialect into italian for me, and then I can answer back. And they all understand Italian fine of course, but it seems genuinely difficult at times for some of them to communicate primarily in italian. They can do it, but they don't seem particularly willing. Granted that they are small town, and that might have something to do with it.

At any rate, good luck. I'm hoping to be an expat one of these days. I will be moving to Milan though, the pace of small town life drives me nuts being from the city.

Thanks so much for the advice everyone! After returning last week from a week in Marsala, I have decided to get the Sicilian-English dictionary, just so I can comprehend the dialect more when I do hear it spoken. Realistically, though, most of the people that I encountered either spoke traditional Italian, quickly reverted to it when they realized that I didn't understand the Sicilian dialect, or went to look for someone who spoke English. For the most part, I got by pretty well with the small amount of Italian that I do know, and I picked up quite a bit more of the language while I was there and actually submersed in the culture. I'm feeling much more comfortable about my ability to interact and communicate with the locals now that I've been there. Thanks, again, for all of your help!

Thanks for following up with the post-trip experience; sounds like you had a lovely time

Best of luck in your move! (It must be coming up soon?)