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Expats in Italy Forum Moving to/Living in Italy Italian Language Sicilian vs. Italian
Expats in Italy Forum Moving to/Living in Italy Italian Language Sicilian vs. Italian|
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Turista |
If you want to see some literary Sicilian these authors have written many of their works in the Sicilian language:
Luigi Pirandello (many early plays) Luigi Capuana Nino Martoglio Angelo Musco Ignazio Butitta I'll add the novelist Andrea Camilleri too. Although he writes in Italian, he uses many Sicilianisms and they would be good to recognize. |
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Permesso di Soggiorno |
Thanks for the suggestions! I'll have to look into some of them once we arrive in December.
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Turista |
Cool. Remember to drink lots of Marsala wine with dessert!
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Permesso di Soggiorno |
You'd better believe I will!
 I got really spoiled when we were there a few weeks ago. Everyday, complimentary fruit and Marsala were put in our hotel room. My glass was always empty before going to bed. We actually brought back a bottle, too, which will soon be empty, thanks mostly to me  |
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Turista |
Someone is lucky! |
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Permesso di Soggiorno |
Marsala wine, brings back a memory. We were there last February for Carnavale and took a side trip to Marsala. We stopped at a winery and the gentleman invited us in to sample the different flavors. YUMM We got a little looped with the sampling. We took 12, yes 12 bottles of Marsala wine home with us, all kinds of different flavors, they even had a banana flavor. Made for a heavy carry on though!! But well worth it!!!
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Cittadino |
Ummm...are you saying that non-written languages or languages without written literature are not languages, just dialects? If so what language are they dialects of? (I'm thinking primarily of Koori and Murri(Australian Aboriginal) languages such as Pintjantjara, Warlpiri, Arrernte, Uw Oykangand etc. They are extremely different from eachother grammatically, phonetically etc but are not written languages (although missionaries have created written versions of many of these languages in order to translate the Bible into them). 
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Moderator Cittadino |
"written" does not refer solely to the actual act of putting a pen to the paper. It also refers to a unique body of lore that is peculiar, widely shared, transmitted and includes poems and songs. Neither australian aboriginal cultures, as well as the other pre-writing cultures do have such body, that is often transmitted with the support of mnemonic aids other than writing (from the Inca's quipu to music and rhyme to pictograms). Dialects do not have a peculiar and unique lore, rather the lore is scarce, and what there is is usually shared with other dialects (the song "Dona lombarda" is a good example, being found in different versions in several northern Italian dialects and areas).
-- Alice Twain |
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Turista |
Personally I fail to see how Sicilian is a dialect of Italian when it existed much longer than Italian has, and besides that point, it is as different from standard Italian as Portuguese is from Spanish. Would you take the right of the Portuguese to call his tongue a language in its own right?
A poem from Antonio Veneziano, from the 1500s who used a different spelling convention that is not too accepted among today's Sicilianists: Non è xhiamma ordinaria, no, la mia è xhiamma chi sul'iu tegnu e rizettu. xhiamma pura e celesti, ch'ardi 'n mia; per gran misteriu e cu stupendu effettu. Amuri, 'ntentu a fari idulatria, s'ha novamenti sazerdoti elettu; tu, sculpita 'ntra st'alma, sì la dia; sacrifiziu lu cori, ara stu pettu. Extract from "Don Chisciotti e Sanciu Panza" by Giovanni Meli, 1700s. Stracanciatu di notti solo jiri; S'ammuccia ntra purtuni e cantuneri; cu vacabunni ci mustra piaciri; poi lu so sbiu sunnu li sumeri, li pruteggi e li pigghia a ben vuliri, li tratta pri parenti e amici veri; siccomu ancora è n'amicu viraci di li bizzarri, capricciusi e audaci. From "Briscula 'n Cumpagni" by Nino Martoglio (1900) -Càrricu, mancu? Ccà cc'è n sei di spati! -E chi schifiu è, di sta manera? Don Peppi Nnappa, d'accussì jucati? -Misseri e sceccu cu tutta a tistera, comu vi l'haju a diri, a vastunati, ca mancu haju sali di salera! |
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Cittadino |
I hesitated to get involved in this debate the first go-around because I was only reading bits and pieces of the debate. Since then, though, I've read a lot discussing whether Sicilian is a language or a dialect, and from where I sit, Sicilian and now Standard Italian evolved contemporaneously side-by-side from Vulgar Latin--as two different languages.
Other than Sicilian having influences from other languages (Spanish, French, German, etc.) in vocabulary and syntax that Italian does not, the body of work in Sicilian (including the 13th century Sicilian School) actually predates Dante and co's Tuscan Italian. And now that we've included what seems to be oral folklore, poems, and songs in the definition of what comprises a language, I really can't see how Sicilian wouldn't qualify as its own language. In any event, from what I've read, it seems that Sicilian has traditionally been *assumed* to be a dialect of Italian, but that once people started actually studying and reporting on it, many agree that Sicilian is its own language; sure the two share some in common because they are both based in Latin, but how could one come from the other when they co-existed? From what I've read, it seems that Sicilian has been kind of  by politics twice: first by being forced out of the running for the title of Standard Italian because of the perpetual political/military invasions of the island, and then by being judged as a dialect by those in power to do the deciding (as sicilianintraining pointed out previously).Interesting discussion, though 
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Turista |
Exactly. And what is interesting is that there is the theory that Sicily was entirely Greek and Arabic speaking before the arrival of the Normans. The evidence to this is that little remains in Sicilian that is Archaic Latin like in other Southern Italian tongues, but rather Medieval Latin. Observe: Latin: Acus Italian: Ago S. Italian: Acu Sicilian: Agugghia Latin: Gutta Italian: Goccia S. Italian: Gutta Sicilian: Gùccia, Stizza Latin: Halare Italian: Sbadigliare S. Italian: Alare Sicilian: Badagghiari Latin: Inuxorare Italian: Sposarsi S. Italian: Nzurari Sicilian: Maritàrisi Latin: Cras Italian: Domani S. Italian: Crai Sicilian: Dumani Latin: Nudiustertius Italian: Avantieri S. Italian: Nustierzu Sicilian: Avanteri Latin: Socer Italian: Suocero S. Italian: Socru Sicilian: Sòggiru Latin: Caput Italian: Testa S. Italian: Capa Sicilian: Testa Latin: Domnula Italian: Donnola S. Italian: Donnula Sicilian: Baddòttula, Beddula Latin: Excitare Italian: Svegliarsi S. Italian: Scetare Sicilian: Arrisbigghiàrisi Latin: Agnus Italian: Agnello S. Italian: Àinu Sicilian: Agneddu Latin: Probare Italian: Assaggiare S. Italian: Pruvare Sicilian: Tastari Latin: Caecatus Italian: Cieco S. Italian: Cicatu Sicilian: Orbu Latin: Acina Italian: Uva S. Italian: Àcina Sicilian: Racina
I have the believe that had the Sicilian intellectuals and poets preserved the writings and documents betteer, Italians would be speaking a language based on medieval Sicilian rather than medieval Tuscan. 
Political reasons, of course.
Indeed. The Early Italian government went about unification wrong. Instead of creating a happy, equal, democratic society they sought to impose brutal laws on the South, deny history, and "create Italians" by telling everyone in Italy that the way they spoke was wrong.  |
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Cittadino |
With the approval of the Calabrian OH, here's some more for comparison. I'm guessing that some of these could even be village specific or at least somewhat localized.
That was fun!  *Edited after conferring with local scholars at the bar in the piazza This message has been edited. Last edited by: testa dura, |
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Turista |
Ti ringrazziu pî vostri palori agghiunti.
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Residente |
This reminds me of France - and how they labelled everything that was not standard French "provençal". Minority languages like Occitan and Breton are dying out. |
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Cittadino |
I agree that at least in this case, a dialect is just a language without a flag (not sure who said this originally...) I fail to see the "literature" part of it. It has been difficult to get books published in Sicilian or Calabrian for political reasons so authors from those areas write in Italian. This does not mean that Sicilian and Calabrian are not languages.
I think that the differences between languages and dialects are often largely political. There are so many examples of dialects becoming languages once their lands gained political independence or the locals became nationalistic for political reasons. Ukrainian, for example, has at various times been described as a dialect of Russian or Polish (I've actually met Polish people who still maintain that Ukrainian is a Polish dialect and that for this reason Western Ukraine should be part of Poland again  ). Nationalistic Serbs claim that Serbian and Croatian are separate languages even though my Croatian (non nationalistic) friend, who grew up in Yugoslavia says that Croatian and Serbian are almost identical to eachother and are essentially the same language (written in different alphabets). It all depends on your political/national perspective.
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Permesso di Soggiorno |
I don't mean to bump an old thread, but how do you think your statement makes Sicilians and Sicilian Americans like me who are fiercely proud of our language (not dialect) feel?  I realize you probably weren't trying to hurt anyone's feelings, but remember that Sicilian is a beautiful language and it's beautiful "cantilena" quality is music to my ears. I wish Sicilian were an official language of Sicily, along with Italian. |
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Permesso di Soggiorno |
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Permesso di Soggiorno |
This Sicilian poem, which defends the Sicilian language, seems appropriate to this thread.
Scroll to the bottom of this page, choose "click here" to hear some Sicilian dialogues and poems, and then choose "Clip 3." |
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Cittadino |
Whether we define them as languages or as dialects, they are part of our heritage, and I hope they are never lost. I apologize in advance for a partial hyjacking, but for those who are interested in the Neapolitan dialect (language), try this:
http://www.napoletanita.it/ |
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Cittadino |
In which case, you probably picked the wrong quotation:
La donna riccia is a song by Domenico Modugno in his own variety of Pugliese dialect. Now, puglia ha sporbably the highiest variety of dialects in whole Italy, with dialects that change totally from one village to the next (as a friend of mine said, his Monteparano dialect cannot be understood by anyone living more than 10 kilometers away from Monteparano, and in turn he cannot understand his neighbors if they are talking in their own dialect!). This is due to the fact thatnpugliese population is essentually an unmixed assortment of various origins. Now Mimmo Modugno came from the town of Polignano a Mare, in the Bari province, where the local dialect is akin to the Sicilian one to the point that it's better understood by Sicilians than by neighbor people from Monopoli or Mola di Bari. Modugno himself allowed the misunderstaing of his Sicilian origin continue for years, and even moved to Sicily where he died. But still, the song is in his own brand and flavor of Pugliese dialect! |
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Permesso di Soggiorno |
Actually Alice, I quoted the version of the song by i mitici Tinturia.. ahem, i mitici *siciliani* Tinturia!
 But either way it's a good song-- and I'm a donna riccia so it makes me giggle |
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