I've always been amazed at English's ability to succinctly describe a whole menagerie of issues with a few short words. My son and I were watching the science fiction film, Alien Vs. Predator, and one of the actors said:

Alexa Woods: How do you say "scared s h i t less" in Italian?
Sebastian de Rosa: Non vedo l'ora di uscire da questo piramide con te, perché mi sto cagando adosso. More or less.

My son cracked up and asked if that was right. I tried to explain that it didn't make sense to translate literally, therefore the long phrase.

On the other hand, I don't think that English has the same evocative qualities as the Romance languages do. When I hear, "Ti voglio bene assai", it brings a tear to me eye.

Tom

although i completely agree with you that often times romance languages use far more words to describe the same thing that we could descibe using just a couple... you need to realize that "scared s***less" translates only into "mi sto cagando adosso" and the rest of that sentence is just adding context or whatever.

i find it interesting how the most offensive italian parolacce involve some sort of religious mention. funny how "porco *io" (often made cleaner with 'porco zio') seems to be the worst one.... when really all your saying is pig god. personally, i think there are far more offensive swear words in english than that...

My son, when little, came home from asilo (run by nuns) with the 'porco *io' one... his father was horrified but tried very hard not to show it. He explained to the boy (then 3yo) that he must have 'misheard' as it should be "porca occa".... (pig and goose). And so it has remained since then
Carole B.

Just shows what offends depends on the person.

In English people say "fudge" when they want to curse without using a curse word. When I was a kid I remember people cursing a local mountain. Taking the name of the mountain in vain is okay Or at least was for most.

OTOH I never understood either fudge or any other filler word. If everybody knows what you mean then what's the difference?

BTW saying you're scared out of your wits wouldn't be very macho. Italian cursing tends to come from anger.

I think we should distinguish between saying bad words (dire parolaccie) and bestemmiare.
Bestemmiare for an Italian is very bad. The tird commandment says:

Non pronuncerai invano il nome del Signore, tuo Dio.

So, whoever does and even adds a bad word to it is in sin according to the Catholic religion.

On the other side to say bad words is common especially in italian offices, I had so much fun when I read the following for the first time and I must say that I find it familiar.

Hi...
For all of us that have experienced working in Italy...!!!

LETTERA DEL MANAGER

Questa é una lettera realmente inviata da un Manager IBM alla filiale italiana, dopo una sua permanenza di qualche settimana presso la sede stessa.

It has been brought to our attention by several officials visiting our establishment in Rome that offensive language is commonly used by our Italian speaking staff. Such behaviour, in addition to violating our policy, is highly unprofessional and offensive to both visitors and staff.
All personnel will immediately adhere to the following rules:

1. Words like "cazzo", "porca puttana" or "mi sono rotto il cazzo" and other such expressions will not be tolerated or used for emphasis or dramatic effect, no matter how heated a discussion may become.

2. You will not say : "ha fatto una cazzata" when someone makes a mistake, or "se lo stanno inculando" if you see someone being reprimended, or "che stronzata" when a major mistake has been made. All forms and derivations of the verb "cacare" are utterly inappropriate and unacceptable in our environment.

3. No project manager, section head or administrator under any circumstances will be referred as "figlio di puttana", "coglione", "testa di cazzo".

4. Lack of determination will not be referred to as "mancanza di palle" nor will persons who lack initiative be referred to as "bradipo" or "cagone".

5. Unusual or creative ideas offered by the management are not to be referred as "pippe mentali" or "idee del cazzo".

6. Do not say "come rompe le palle" nor "ha rotto i coglioni" if a person is persistent; do not add "gli fa ancora male il culo" if a colleague is going through a difficult situation. Furthermore, you must not say "siamo nella merda" (refer to item # 2) "nor ci hanno aperti " when a matter becomes excessively complicated.

7. When asking a someone to leave you alone, you must not say "vattene affanculo" nor should you ever substitute May I help you? With "che cazzo vuoi?"

8. Under no circumstances should you ever call your elderly industrial partners "vecchi stronzi."

9. Do not say "me ne sbatto" when a relevant project is presented to you, nor should you ever answer "ciucciami il cazzo" when your assistance is required.

10. You should never call partners "frocio" or "mignotta"; the sexual behavior of our staff is not to be discussed in terms such as "culattone" or "bagascia".

11. Last but not least, after reading a note please don't say "mi ci pulisco il culo". Just keep it clean and dispose of it properly.

Thank you.

Regards, The Manager




Dora

Dora, let me say that not in all regions cursing (bestemmiare) is that bad. In the area where my maternal grandparents are from ("oltrepò mantovano", the area of the Mantova province south of the PO river) cursing is essentially a decorative accent to everyone's words. Everyone curses, quite colloquially, and even more when angry (my own favorite angry curse is about 30 seconds long). I remeber once my grandfather being quite upset and in an extreme cursing fit and my granny replying "Purcu Xxx, biastuma no!" (DIALECTAL CURSE, don't swear!). It's also the area where an affectionate greeting is "C'at 'gnis an cancor" ("hope you get a cancer"). When I say that everyone curses I mean that EVERYONE does it, men, women and even kids. I bet prests in the area curse too when playing cards (local favorite cards game: "quarrelling" briscola).
Other areas where cursing is quite natural are Tuscany (with a very creative way of doing it, especially in the area of Livorno) and Piedmont (that produced the one most scenic and blood-and-other-organic-stuff-dripping curse I ever heard, but not used, which is "Xxx faus", fake Xxx).

Once, in Edinburgh, I was waiting to be served at a fish and chips place and there was this very drunk young man cursing incessantly but quite boringly, repeating the few curses he knew over and over and pretty loud. As I was waiting, I mumbled in dialect "LONG CURSE INVOLVING DIVINITY IN ALL ITS THREE PERSONS, SAINT MARY AND SEVERAL OTHER STAINTS biastuma no s'at sit mia bo' (don't curse if you are not able to)". The guy behind the counter laughed: it turned out he was from Emilia and understood what I said (dialects are quite similar). The cursing also offended his aesthetic sense for the curse: we were not bothered by the meaning of it, we simply found it clumsy, repetitive and unpleasant.
This just to say that in some areas of Italy, good cursing is perceived as a form of popular art, not at all as an offensive attitude.

(By the way, has anyone considered that actually cursing only exists for believers in some sort of religion? If Italy had not been this deeply influenced by the Church, would we curse at all?)

quote:

Originally posted by AliceTwain:

(By the way, has anyone considered that actually cursing only exists for believers in some sort of religion? If Italy had not been this deeply influenced by the Church, would we curse at all?)

Would still be cursing Jupiter.

Or the Great Mother Earth!

A few weeks ago I started a page on my website for Italian slang and swearwords, and it's already very popular! I guess inquiring minds want to know...

Or we are just a bunch of five yars old kids...

I thought Dora's letter was screamingly funny! Oddly, although I have avoided learning bad language, I understood almost all of it.... I must keep the wrong company.

That's funny, Judith-

After reading Dora's letter, i realized that if i actually followed the rules of that company i would be left with only very dull and boring things conversations. i feel like i use every one of those "parolacce" every day! haha.

i must just have a dirty mouth...

well, I am sorry to say that the language descived in the letter is extremely familiar in my environment, and that makes it even funnier to me.

Which part you didn' t understand Judith?

Dora

Froccio, mignotta and the last one. Dora, I do not need to know this stuff! I am strange enough here without being considered a foul-mouthed old hag.

Like Judith, I know what all of those words mean. Not that I would ever use them.... (perhaps 'under my breath' when I'm steamin').

But reading through your post Dora, my first reaction was a wry smile , then I realised that when I hear this kind of language in public I don't like it!

So I'll put my hand up now and confess - before everyone jumps on me - YES maybe I am becoming a 'prude', but that causes me no problem at all...and I bet I still know more dirty jokes than you. So there!!!!!!

Carole B.

The point of the thread was NOT to begin a dissertation on swears. I was mostly pointing out the differences that each language possesses in their ability to either succinctly, or verbosely describe certain situations/thoughts.

tom

sorry, tom,

i sort of started getting the discussion going in the wrong direction and it spurred out of control!

in a peace offering, i will add this little interesting anecdote:

In English, it is completely acceptable to put "CELTA certified" or something to the extent of "TEFL certified" on my resume.

In my Italian curriculum I need to put this instead:

"ho ottenuto il diploma CELTA con cui sono abilitata a lavorare come lettrice di madrelingua inglese"

ha! i know this also includes more formality... but just another example of the tendency to be wordy in some languages...especially italian.

(hope this helps veer your post in the intended direction, tom!)

quote:

Originally posted by dumbmick:
The point of the thread was NOT to begin a dissertation on swears. I was mostly pointing out the differences that each language possesses in their ability to either succinctly, or verbosely describe certain situations/thoughts.

tom

I know your pain, Tom, but it's the risk you take posting on a public forum. Once you click 'post now' you no longer own the post, the public does. If they take it and run in the opposite direction, you've just got to shrug and laugh it off. A safer alternative would be a blog with no comments allowed, but that would be pretty boring, wouldn't it?

Mani is right... Half the fun(?) and suspense with a 'friendly forum' like this one (an exception to the rule I do believe) is the fact that there are no holds barred within the realms/rules set by Cristina.

The moderators here are never intrusive, but are indeed a part of this group and as such participate, while keeping the likes of me 'in line' if I stray - and I've done that a couple of times and been (rightly) 'ticked off' for it.

If a thread (any thread) cannot go off topic occaisionally, then Mani is right, the only solution would be to use our general 'blog' with the rule that no one may submit any comments!!!

Sorry, but I don't think so. I'd die of boredom within a week, then say 'Addio Expats - it was nice while it lasted'. Whereas with this formula that works so well, why put limitations down that many wouldn't like.
Carole B.

I don't mind about the swearing. I'm Irish. We swear every other minute, at least.

tom

Whoa! Relax everyone.

Tom, as others said, public forums are just like live chatting: you start an idea, than others put their hands to it and the discussion takes a whole different direction. You have to play along with it, unfortunately. And fortunately!
This specific thread, with that subject, also awoke the five years old that lives inside each one of us, always eager to say "bad words" just because they are prohibited. Probably each one of us enjoyed this short, volunteer lapse of control. The "silly thread development" is yet another risk and joy of web communications.

On the other hand, I honestly don't have much to add to the main theme. Why we Italians are so verbose? Who knows! One of the reasons I like English so much is its being synthetic to the extreme, essential. I like being (barely!) able to build a full sentence with just a few words and the subtileties connected with it. On the other hand, when using Italian I also like long, complicate, "arzigogolate", almost byzantine forms that simple phrases can get. Far less efficient in communication, but fun if you have a linguistic geeky side.
So, why? Actually Italian could be almost as essential as English. It would still use more words and longer ones, but if we trimmed off all the embellishments we would still get perfect phrases. On the other hand, put English in the hands of an Italian and that's what comes out: just reread this message. After all, I am convinced that this is just a cultural tract, a habit. italian is written and spoken with flourishes here and there because we like it best that way. We are grown accustomed to it and a simple direct statement sounds dull and banal. It's like raw fish: you can learn to like sashimi even if you didn't grow up with it, but in the end you still return to your branzino al sale ^___^

Che buono il branzino al sale!!!!!!

Dora

Swearing in Italian is certainly much less offensive than English. I mean Dora's letter makes us laugh, would the English equivalent? I bet more would be upset with that. However not me I spend my entire life effing and blinding it!

my friend fede always laughs at my italian because im so straight forward and to the point. I guess its just cause im translating what i want to say from english and dont get the point of putting on all the flourishes. boh!

Lori

Today I sent a fannculo a co-worker first thing in the morning and she didn't get upset or mad at me at all. After a few minutes we were talking again.
With americans we don't dare to say anything unless we know for sure that they don't understand a word of italian. And I think that was the case of the letter, the italians employees didn't think to be understood. Between us it's normal to tell each other all kinds of words.
We also have no problem to call one of our italian co-workers "chiatto" and sometimes we really give hard time to those men who have the belly and tell them to stop eating, to exercise and all kind of things. If we said something like that to an american he would probably take us to court.

Dora