I guess it was inevitable but apparently the Mediterrean diet is dying with children in southern European countries such as Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal showing higher rates of overweight and obesity than kids in Northern Europe.

This article focuses on Greece but apparently this trend also applies to Italy. I have definitely noticed many overweight children here - and children seem to eat a lot of chocolate junk (nutella, kinder bars, chocolate breakfast cereal) and fizzy drinks for breakfast and merenda.

NY Times article

I found it interesting that the article gave a statistic that 50% of the adult Italian population is overweight, does anyone else find that hard to believe?

Not really. I see a lot of overweight people here in Rome. It's not hugely obese people like in parts of the US but overweight definitely. I also live around the corner from a gelateria where you see lots of overweight families.

When I came to Italy twenty years ago, it was almost impossible to find an overfat/obese person in Italy. Now, I have no problem in believing it's 50% or more. Go to any mall in Rome and you will see a lot of people with extra weight. I saw a lot of overweight people recently also in Naples. The real Mediterrean Diet has been gone for quite a while as people are eating more meat and cheese, which in the real Mediterrean Diet made up for a very small part of the diet. The real Mediterrean Diet is made up of legumes (or other complex cards), fruit and vegetables with a little fish occasionally.

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Originally posted by cobalt:
I found it interesting that the article gave a statistic that 50% of the adult Italian population is overweight, does anyone else find that hard to believe?

No. Not at all. I see lots of overweight adults here in the south. Also bear in mind the definition of overweight is usually BMI over 25 (weight in kgs divided by ht in m2). So what people think is 'overweight' vs the medical definition is often 2 very different things. My husband (is a surgeon) has said the number of people who come to him for obesity surgery is rising rapidly while the population in general seems to be generally unaware.

Furthermore to the article I'd have to say in addition to the introduction of sugar and fat laden packaged snacks (marketed as 'good' for kids as they contain milk!!) I also see hardly any physical activity going on here. We knew an expat family who came out for the year and their KIDS age 11 commented on how large (NOT height wise!) and unfit the kids at their school here were. Not surprising when there are no physical activity programmes unless you pay for them privately, no one seems to walk anymore and there are junk food vending machines in schools. Needless to say these kids were looking forward to getting back home so they could once again do their favourite sports that were unavailable here (or at least not unless you had a small fortune!)

I'd be very interested to see a comparison study between the North vs South of Italy or even big vs small town Italy.

Yes- they don't seem to have sports/team sports at schools here like they did at least when I was at school in Australia. You have to do these privately outside of school hours and I'm sure a lot of kids can't afford it or their parents don't have time to take them to the sports facility. Also, kids don't seems to walk or ride bikes here. Everyone drives their kids everywhere even in a big city like Rome.

You say all this, but where then does the stereotype of the Italian, Greek or Spanish mamma/nonna come from all in black who is never slim and svelte? They have always been around, so obesity has always existed in the over 60's, and they are the age group, like in the rest of Europe, that is increasing, so obesity will too. Also sweet snacks have always been favoured over cereals and fruit, it is more likely the quantities that are increasing, plus more people drive. When I have a car I can almost guarantee to put on 14 pounds over a year. Too many things are responsible for weight increase across the population, but declining activity is the most likely culprit for the rapid increases we see.

OH and I have been saying for years how overweight people (especially children) are becoming in Italy, specifically Capri where we are. I can tell you, spend a day on the beach at the weekend and you will find that it is a lot more than 50% of the people that are overweight. The majority of the children are way above the weight they should be, some so grossly overweight that they cannot walk properly. We see it more when the boats come in from Naples and people come over for the day. They come laden down with bags of food and spend the whole day eating. We seen one boy who must have been around 10, attempting to play football on the beach with a huge panini in each hand, eating them as he was running! Many of the children don't even go in the water and just sit on a towel and eat. You tend to find that the parents are also large and pass on their bad habits to their children. OH's nephew who is 18 now, has been a fat child since he was about 5. We used to go for dinner with him and his mother and she encouraged him to eat way more than he needed. We would have a pizza, he would have starter, main, dessert, 5 cokes etc. Each year we met up he was larger and larger and a couple of years ago OH, who never minces his words told him that he was really overweight and needed to lose it. I was mortified that he had said that but it was true. This summer we met up and couldn't believe the change. He's moved out of his mothers house and has lost 9 stones, he's a different person! The mother was the bad influence on him and didn't think there was anything wrong with him being heavy.

It's no wonder that there is a problem with weight when you get invited to dinner at someones house and are faced with a 10 course dinner. Instead of eating a small amount of each course, some people gorge themselves to the point of gluttony. We went to a wedding last year and the amount of food was ridiculous. The guests at our table came with rucksacks and when they have filled their stomachs, they emptied the remainder of the food on the platters into their bags to take away! That was the same wedding that the nonna was sitting outside in her bra because of the heat so it doesn't surprise me that they behaved like that!

The whole world is changing though, not just Italy. When I was a child, I was outside constantly, playing on my bike, running around with my friends. Christmas Day you would see children out first thing in the morning with their new bikes etc. Now, Christmas Day you see noone because they are all inside playing with their playstations, computers etc. Children are spending more time playing computer games than being active and it is leading to weight problems.

Maybe the Wii really is the answer then! We were in Viareggio this summer and Nintendo had a large tent there set up with all the latest Wii consoles and games. The tent was full of kids playing tennis, volleyball, golf etc. It's not the answer, but it must be the direction to go to get kids active.

My mother would throw me out of the house from about the age of 8 in the summer and only let me back in for meals. Rather than feeling unwanted it was great as all the neighbours did the same and we all played in one massive gang. We would probably be arrested and given ASBO's now though!

Is this another north vs south thing? Here most of the kids we know are doing at least one sport or physical activity and some two or three every week. And the activities they do are very competitive. Last year my daughter who is probably typical was at dance two nights a week, and at track (athletics) another two. On the weekends we are skiing or biking. Then throw in the swimming lessons. This year she just wants to do volleyball three nights a week.

We had a birthday party the other day all the kids were thin but one, interesting that on a recent hike with her and her parents the mom was asking her if she wanted something to eat every 5 minutes. I commented on a thread a while back on how fat the people seemed at the beach. And how it didn't seem to stop them from going around in their tight little swim suits. I got some flack on it about how everyone should be entitled to enjoy the sun fat or slim.

jhelm- in Belluno are all of these sports free at public schools or do the parents have to pay for them, find someone to take the kid there etc?

Belluno is a very wealthy town - I think in most of the developed world people in wealthier communities tend to be thinner and have more time/money for healthy food, exercise etc whereas in poor ones people are fatter. I bet if you compared Belluno with, say Naples or even Rome you'd find that this is the case. In New York, for example you don't find many fat people on the Upper East Side but you find plenty in Bedford Stuyvesant.

I don't know what the public school provides. My kids are in a private one. I don't think the people here consider it to be a wealthy town but maybe there are some statistics that show that it is. As far as I know most of the acitivities are an extra cost. Prices vary, the track program is almost free maybe 30 euro a semester. My daughters dance classe were 300 for the year. And yes the parents must find a way to get them there. But they do. It's mostly a matter of attitude and desire. There is usually a way. Ski lessons and swim lessons are set up for all the schools now that I think of it. And the cost is very little. In those cases the kids are picked up by buses at their schools, even the preschools.

I think even in Rome once you get kids in school and hook up with other parents with like desires you will find that those parents who want their kids to be active even those with little money can do so.

The comment about poor people being fatter could start a whole new discussion so I won't touch it.

No, I think it maybe a money vs. none rather than N vs.S although in some cases this is going to equate to the same thing.

I've just paid for my 4 year olds gioco danza. €85 inscription, then €185 until Xmas. I find the price outrageous and we still get paid in sterling, so what is the average Italian family going to think!

Having said that, we have a square outside our house, equipped with five-a-side football pitch, volleyball pitch, both all weather and a huge playground with equipment for all ages, all free and always packed, and there are plenty more like this in Florence. The downside to standing in a playground for me is the boredom factor, so I'd rather sit in the warm and pay for the ballet while I read!!

It’s the American model that’s imposing itself on the world.
Isn’t McDonald’s the herald and the bridgehead of the American way of life?
"Quantity over quality" and there you are.

Of course it's the fatties' families fault, not America's. People are still free to refuse models they don't like.

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Originally posted by Ragazza scozzese:
When I was a child, I was outside constantly, playing on my bike, running around with my friends. Christmas Day you would see children out first thing in the morning with their new bikes etc. Now, Christmas Day you see noone because they are all inside playing with their playstations, computers etc. Children are spending more time playing computer games than being active and it is leading to weight problems.

On a more serious note, this is spot on.
It's my experience also and it's somehow comforting to see that this happens everywhere.
I rememebr when I was a child, many of us brats playing in the street, wild but safe. It was the 70's, not the Middle Ages.
Now there's nerds and TV addicts where brats used to be and it's sadder and duller.

Or, more simply, I'm just getting old.

JAPrufrock - off topic, sorry, but you really are forcing me to read that blasted poem! I want to know why you are calling yourself that!!

quote:

Originally posted by JAPrufrock:
It’s the American model that’s imposing itself on the world.
Isn’t McDonald’s the herald and the bridgehead of the American way of life?
"Quantity over quality" and there you are.

Of course it's the fatties' families fault, not America's. People are still free to refuse models they don't like.

Hasn't Nutella been Italy's favorite food for at least a decade now? Anyway, I don't know if it's emulation of a McDonald's mindest. I think the overconsumption of sweets and other carbs plus (big plus) evolving lack of physical activity to offset it plays a large role.

Those stereotypical Italian mamme and nonne were not thin in their older, less active years either. It always seemed to me that it was not really the actual diet, but more the level of activity that played a huge role. Now that the less and less physical activity is done by i giovani, they are plumping up at younger ages. I don't think it should be surprising.

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Originally posted by alyson:
JAPrufrock - off topic, sorry, but you really are forcing me to read that blasted poem! I want to know why you are calling yourself that!!

I'm calling myself that because maybe people could be led to believe I'm a sort of clumsy, interesting, anti-hero, intriguing type of person.

Which I'm not, of course, but this is the internet, baby, and I might be J. Alfred Prufrock, Danny de Vito, Sarah Palin, Ryan Giggs or Cindy Lauper and you would never know.

Japrufrock... I'd say it's more specifically a corporate model, not an just an american one.

Well, apart from all the posturing, it looks like there isn't a clear-cut definition of obesity--eye of the beholder and all that.

Here in Italy there's the bulky suocera and the goloso preteen, but there ought to be an aesthetic distinction, and that the slightly potbellied geezer walking his dog shouldn't be chucked into the same category as those who need the whole three airline seats.

And just to pitch the cat amongst the pigeons: intolerance is intolerance, and prejudice is still prejudice, whether it's aimed at the corpulent or the swarthy of complexion. Anyone who claims to be superior to anyone else based on physical or mental attributes is kidding him/herself if he/she thinks he/she is open-minded.

quote:

intolerance is intolerance, and prejudice is still prejudice, whether it's aimed at the corpulent or the swarthy of complexion. Anyone who claims to be superior to anyone else based on physical or mental attributes is kidding him/herself if he/she thinks he/she is open-minded.

Brava!

quote:

Originally posted by filomena:
Well, apart from all the posturing, it looks like there isn't a clear-cut definition of obesity--eye of the beholder and all that.

Hope I won't sound pedantic but it seems there is:
"Obesity is a condition in which excess body fat has accumulated to such an extent that health may be negatively affected. It is commonly defined as a body mass index (BMI = weight divided by height squared) of 30 kg/m2 or higher. This distinguishes it from being overweight as defined by a BMI of between 25-29.9 kg/m2.".
From Wikipedia, the source of all knowledge.

The problem with BMI though, as the army in the UK has now realised, it doesn't take into account the weight of a person's muscle mass, so a big, very fit, muscular soldier,football or rugby player will show up as obese! You have to be able to measure someone's lean body mass to say whether they are obese or not.

filomena - I think we have to disagree on this one - you can't decide race, gender or disability but in most cases you can take responsibility for obesity or addictive behaviour, which is what has led to most people's obesity. So in the same way we don't tolerate drug addicts, why should we tolerate obesity? Don't get me wrong, I fight the flab along with everyone, which is perhaps why I can say the above. I can't keep biscuits or treats around my house, either me or my OH will demolish them. I live with a midnight snacker who can't understand why he can't keep the weight off. I weigh less when I lay off TV! Hard to read a book or type when you are trying to munch through a pack of biscuits! Damages the keyboard too!