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Expats in Italy Forum Moving to/Living in Italy Health & Health Insurance Doctors must denounce clandestini
Expats in Italy Forum Moving to/Living in Italy Health & Health Insurance Doctors must denounce clandestini|
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Volo Libero Cittadino |
Under one provision of Lega's new security package, doctors must notify the police when undocumented immigrants need health care. As a result, people will not seek care when needed because they will be deported.
http://www.stranieriinitalia.it/attualita-lega_permesso...lia_va_via_5980.html |
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Cittadino |
So they won't seek health care and thus not be a burden on the system. In the US one of the big complaints and one reason quoted for the high costs is the number of people who use the emergency room as their only source of health care and then don't pay because they can't.
I'm not commenting on the right or wrong of the idea, but I'm guessing a lot of Italians will think it's fine, because they will think why should they pay for the health care of people who are here illegally. |
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Cittadino |
Isn't THAT a fact! (and not just in Italy either...) |
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Permesso di Soggiorno |
I thought my tax money for the National Health Service was meant to support a system that works for everyone, even those who can't pay for it, even clandestini. Otherwise what are we paying for?
Still, I agree with jhelm that many Italians will like the idea. How humane. |
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Volo Libero Cittadino |
If you read the article, the doctor would still give the patient needed care. But then they would denounce them to the police. The idea isn't to save money on health care- it's a convenient choke point to catch undocumented immigrants when they come out because they need help, confine them in a holding camp, then put them on a boat back to Africa (or wherever they're from). The unintended consequence will be people afraid to ask for help and then dying, or if they live, infecting the Italian population at large. |
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Cittadino |
Probably true, health care is not the place to deal with illegal immigration. It's kind of just picking on the most desparate rather than dealing directly with the problem. Let them in to work cheap, but dare not spend any money on them. Keeping them out in the first place would solve the problem but that would deny those who profit off of them their profits. Same thing in the US just arresting and charging a few employers who illegally hire them would probably cut the flow in half over night. Funny how it never happens. |
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Cittadino |
Yes Bill, I did read the article, and I have never, ever suggested that a sick person should not be offered help - whether they can pay for it or not.
My fear lies with the consequences for those who have worked hard, paid their dues and are increasingly being denied an acceptable standard of living which is above what we accept as the poverty line. Here in Italy (and much of Europe) we have many ‘immigrants’ who really do wish to become part of their newly adopted country and to that end will do ALL that is expected of them to stay on the right side of the legislation and the culture of their ‘new homeland’. Then there are ‘clandestini’ (illegals). These are what much of the unrest here is all about. These people are often from the shady or illegal side or from the ‘wrong tribe’ in their own countries! Countries that must be – to say the least – very pleased to see the back of them. As they are without doubt a drain on their resources too. That’s why these countries - countries like Mexico, Peru, India, Pakistan, Albania, Somaliland, Ethiopia and North Africa in general, plus until recently the old Eastern Bloc countries (now legally allowed in….), will NEVER lift a finger to stop the exodus from their countries!!!!! But we should also consider the advantages that these ‘escapees’ produce for the many who are already rich beyond belief ‘back there’ where-ever ‘there’ may be…. Less mouths to feed, less services to provide, more wealth for the greedy. Yes THEY will laugh all the way to their ‘offshore’ banks until they are deposed… While at the same time our own country’s social systems are collapsing under this insupportable extra weight and our ‘own genuine needy’ are just getting poorer, sicker and hungrier every day, while the rich who exploit the clandestini over here are left to get on with it by certain authorities turning a blind eye! |
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Cittadino |
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Volo Libero Cittadino |
Carole, that tirade sounded familiar, so I checked. Sure enough, cut and pasted from here: http://expattalk.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/6310061972/...440001394#8440001394 Do you not see the illogic in saying "I have never, ever suggested that a sick person should not be offered help - whether they can pay for it or not" whilst supporting a policy that bars the sick from seeking treatment because they know they'll be deported? |
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Cittadino |
Yes I did use a revised part of that previously posted argument (maybe 'tirade' is a little strong?). And I'm not quite sure how you arrived at this conclusion:
Did I really say that? Maybe you are referring to THIS post: quote (by jhelm): "I'm not commenting on the right or wrong of the idea, but I'm guessing a lot of Italians will think it's fine, because they will think why should they pay for the health care of people who are here illegally." (and my response) Isn't THAT a fact! (and not just in Italy either...) Where do I support a policy that bars the sick from seeking treatment because they know they'll be deported? All I am doing here is agreeing (wholeheartedly) that Italians will not like the idea of paying for the health care of clandestini. So I'll say again - " I have never, ever suggested that a sick person should not be offered help - whether they can pay for it or not" |
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Volo Libero Cittadino |
Excellent! Glad to see you strongly support undocumented immigrants' right to health care in Italy, without worry of being reported to the police.
It was hard to see earlier, as you stated it was your fear, not Italians': "My fear lies with the consequences for those who have worked hard, paid their dues and are increasingly being denied an acceptable standard of living which is above what we accept as the poverty line." Then you call it an unsupportable extra weight: "While at the same time our own country’s social systems are collapsing under this insupportable extra weight and our ‘own genuine needy’ are just getting poorer, sicker and hungrier every day..." |
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Cittadino |
Is it me or are people more tetchy than usual on here? Is it all the proposed reforms by Lega Nord or the general world crisis that's effecting everyone?
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Volo Libero Cittadino |
Lega Nord's been in the catbird seat since gaining power in the last election. As for the effect of the financial crisis on Lega Nord's anti-immigrant stance, they will likely add it to the list of ills they blame on immigrants and southerners- plays well to their core constituency.
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Cittadino |
Oh dear Bill...
I've no idea what a 'catbird seat' is and I've no idea why you seem unable to see what my stance is (you don't have to agree) regarding a. The Lega Nord b. Free healthcare to clandestini/illlegali c. The rights of clandestini/illlegali to remain in ANY country. d. The rights of the local populace to a decent wage and decent (above the poverty line)standard of living. e. The 'fat cats' everywhere who profit through their sheer greed from ALL of these people. I don't wan't to argue any more. I give up...  The platform is all yours. Please feel free to make what you will of what I have said. Just don't say I said things that I didn't!
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Volo Libero Cittadino |
As you wish, but wouldn't it be simpler to just come clean and state "my fear" and "our ‘own genuine needy’" is your personal feeling, not something referring to how Italians are feeling?
Otherwise wouldn't you have written "their fear" and "their "own genuine needy'"? |
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Cittadino |
Bill, how would you deal with the illegal immigration problem?
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Volo Libero Cittadino |
In the context of this thread, I would not only permit but encourage undocumented immigrants who truly need health care to come to the hospital without fear of being reported to the police, subsequent detention in camps, and deportation. To do otherwise increases risk of contagion to the Italian populace.
Leaving the context of this thread for a moment, I'd declare a sanatoria for those already in Italy. I'd match the flussi to the demand for labor that Italians or other EU citizens won't do, rather than forcing needed workers to live in nero (which would increase income tax revenues). I'd work with originating countries to develop industry at home. I'd work with transit countries to prevent people from departing in deathtrap boats in the first place, rather than waiting to see how many survive, put them in detention camps and send them home (so they can start the journey again). And I'd put the onus on businesses who hire undocumented immigrants, and profit at their expense, rather than punishing the workers. |
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Residente |
Pretty tall order! Your view is a bit rosy in light of the fact that:
-a great many of the nations these people come from really don't care what happens to them, in fact are quite happy to see them cast off in leaky sardine tins, gets the irritants out of their hair and into someone else's--or at the bottom of the Med, who cares? -Italy's economy forged ahead after Mussolini had made a total hash of it because of clandestine Italian cottage industry, and I doubt Italians have totally forgotten this: best way to make a lira/euro is without the greedy government knowing what you're up to. So that would translate into hiring illegals. I'm not disagreeing one iota with your premise, please don't get me wrong, I just see stumbling blocks in the realisation of your arguments, owing to the often and very lamentable fact that lots of humans really aren't bothered by the tragic end of many of their own species. There are despots all over who regularly grind their own populations into the dust, literally, and there is often not much the rest of the world can do about it, try as they may. Not that you or anyone else should give up trying to make it better, just that thousands of years of humanity have produced not all that many civilised nations who actually care about their citizens. |
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Volo Libero Cittadino |
Much that's worth doing isn't easy. And we need to ask ourselves- what is the alternative?
Is it Lega Nord's vision- packing undocumented immigrants into holding camps, then expelling them (only to have the displaced return and start the whole process again). Do we accept the status quo, allowing employers to hire undocumented immigrants without paying income tax or social contributions? Do we maintain flussi below the demand for labor, so hundreds of thousands of undocumented workers who are pleading to be allowed to legalize are denied a pds? Should these workers get health care and education for their kids or do we want them to grow up to join an underclass? |
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Residente |
No, but try enforcing the laws! I agree that the employers should be the first hit because that might have the knock-on effect of discouraging masses of illegals from coming here: if there is no opportunity to make a living here it might be a slight deterrant.
I say slight: most immigrants are so desperate to get out of the hellholes they live in now, swimming naked through shark-infested waters sounds like a doddle by comparison--and certainly worth a try. We've already learned the hard way that throwing money to third world nations just ends up in the hands of the wrong people. My only offer by way of a solution is to create educational programs so these people can learn a skill: then they start to look attractive, and Europe would be more open to admitting them. As things stand, it doesn't take much for an unscrupulous person to exploit an unskilled labourer--one wee step up from slavery if you ask me. As for the Lega, I really have no comment. Their "solution" is abominable. |
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Residente |
Sorry, I didn't address the healthcare question.
That's a tough one because you're both right: Carole in lamenting the overburdened system barely funded by legitimate citizens, and Bill, in the danger of spreading disease through lack of available care. I think forcing doctors to denounce undocumented immigrants goes against their hippocratic oath, and there should be some backlash on that one. If I were a doctor and someone came to me for care, I not only wouldn't turn them away, I sure wouldn't turn them in to the authorities. Reminiscent of the old Hitler/Stalin stuff: get your own citizens to do your dirty work for you. Horror is, it worked. I hope times have changed. |
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Volo Libero Cittadino |
Excellent suggestion!  |
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