Italy doesn't really seem to want many skilled folks from abroad to come here to work. I'll try to find the article I saw about this- Italy only allows a tiny percentage of highly educated immigrants into the country to work.
It's the unskilled folks who do the dirty work that are allowed in.
I think you have the correct picture. The problem then is that they can't pass laws that would only let those people in as it would expose their true intentions.
Quote: "Then there are ‘clandestini’ (illegals). These are what much of the unrest here is all about. These people are often from the shady or illegal side or from the ‘wrong tribe’ in their own countries!"
So do you know any clandestini then? I expect only the images that the Italian media show which are always negative.
My boyfriend (of 2 years) is a clandestino. He's certainly not shady or from the wrong tribe. He simply came here with a Visa and didnt go back. Why? Because even if his family arent poor in his country, there is no work there and as his father is sick so he sends 80% of his salary back home to pay for his father's hospital bills. Luckily at the moment he gets a reasonable wage for not too many hours. However, before this he worked 12 hours a day EVERY DAY for €900 a month. In this period he lost something like 10kg in 3 months. Great deal hey? He sent most his money back to his family, paid his rent and didnt have any money left over for himself. He has a friend who is clandestino too (but from a different country) he also works everyday for about €900. Can you imagine surviving in Rome with €900. I only earn €1050 myself but at least I have the weekend and evening free. And now some generous people would like to take away the possibility of healthcare should he fall sick (which is quite likely working 75 hours a week? But surely these people are paying. When you work as a clandestino you are helping the Italian economy. Do people honestly think that instead of paying a clandestine for 12 hours they are going to pay two Italians double that with a fixed contract? And if people are so against clandestini then they shouldnt buy cheap clothes that are made by clandestini in illegal factories and then labelled made in Italy. But lets face it people are quite happy to have cheaper prices made by clandestine labour aren't they? Just as long as they don't have to pay too many taxes should they fall sick.
This country is also very racist just the words clandestine and extracommunitary have negative meaning. In the UK you're called an overstayer, its quite common there too, but nobody cares less because they understand that most people come to work, there's no "security emergency" even though in reality there are as many overstayers in the UK as there are in Italy.
And now some generous people would like to take away the possibility of healthcare should he fall sick (which is quite likely working 75 hours a week?
All the more galling when people complain about undocumented immigrants draining Italy's health care funds, while those same people avoid paying IVA on home improvements (for example), thereby withholding funding of Italian health care.
This country is also very racist just the words clandestine and extracommunitary have negative meaning. QUOTE]
Yes the term "extracomunitare" always struck me as bizarre. I can't think of a direct equivalent in the other two EU countries I've lived in (the UK and France). All I can think of in British English is "non-EU member" which is certainly not derogatory and neither suggests that you are illegal nor in any way undesirable. In France the term "sans papiers" (without papers) is used for illegal immigrants but not particularly in a derogatory way, in general you hear it in discussions about how to help them or descriptions of their plight. I wonder if there are any other countries with an equivalent term that literally means "non EU member" but that is used in such a derogatory way?
Yes, extracommunitario is very negative in Italian and very racist. Back before I became a citizen of an EU country I told people that I was an "extracommunitaria" (accurate since I was an Australian citizen) and they said "oh no you're not, you're Australian". They may as well have said "oh no you're not because your non-EU country is rich and you're white." So it's not a race-neutral term.
I agree with the Kats - when Italians start paying all their taxes and stop doing things in nero THEN they can start complaining about the clandestini. So long as they hire clandestini to clean their apartments/look after their elderly or children, buy tomatoes picked by clandestini, do things in nero and avoid taxes they're just big hypocrites when they go after the poor, powerless clandestini.
Originally posted by Ramona: when Italians start paying all their taxes and stop doing things in nero THEN they can start complaining about the clandestini. So long as they hire clandestini to clean their apartments/look after their elderly or children, buy tomatoes picked by clandestini, do things in nero and avoid taxes they're just big hypocrites when they go after the poor, powerless clandestini.
and the same goes for any country that pretends to have an immigration "problem"...
Posts: 241 | Location (City & State): In giro... | Registered: 29 March 2008
Ferrero: "Le politiche discriminatorie, segregazioniste e di vero e proprio apartheid della Lega le pagheranno tutti i cittadini, italiani ed extracomunitari".
Originally posted by Ramona: when Italians start paying all their taxes and stop doing things in nero THEN they can start complaining about the clandestini. So long as they hire clandestini to clean their apartments/look after their elderly or children, buy tomatoes picked by clandestini, do things in nero and avoid taxes they're just big hypocrites when they go after the poor, powerless clandestini.
and the same goes for any country that pretends to have an immigration "problem"...
I think that falls into the category of two wrongs don't make a right. Let's see the country should ignore the status of illegal immigrants, people who are breaking Italian laws, because Italians give them work. And let's carry it a step further, because some people break the law by for example working in black the country ought to forget about enforcing it's other laws. The majority of Italians are not working in black, though it is very common, and the majority are not hiring clandestini, maybe the majority has a right to have it's immigration laws enforced.
maybe the majority has a right to have it's immigration laws enforced.
Apparently that's what the majority elected Lega Nord to do. Those who did not win the election are still allowed to voice their disagreement, like we're doing on this thread.
Lega Nord has the votes in parliament to pass whatever they want, so they certainly can require doctors to denounce sick immigrants to the police and have them deported.
As a result, sick immigrants already in Italy won't seek health care. Sure, it may save a few euro in health costs, but what about the epidemiological costs?
The senate version of the bill also requires the undocumented immigrant to pay in advance of health care, prior to denunciation and expulsion. If not paid in advance, the doctor will not provide health care (prior to denouncing them).
quote:
Oltre che eliminare il divieto di segnalazione, l’emendamento al disegno di legge sulla sicurezza prevede un giro di vite anche sul pagamenti delle prestazioni sanitarie da parte dei clandestini. Questo andrà effettuato prima delle cure e solo se queste sono urgenti e non differibili potrà essere posticipato. Ad ogni modo, chi si rifiuterà di pagare verrà denunciato
Originally posted by Ramona: when Italians start paying all their taxes and stop doing things in nero THEN they can start complaining about the clandestini. So long as they hire clandestini to clean their apartments/look after their elderly or children, buy tomatoes picked by clandestini, do things in nero and avoid taxes they're just big hypocrites when they go after the poor, powerless clandestini.
and the same goes for any country that pretends to have an immigration "problem"...
I think that falls into the category of two wrongs don't make a right. Let's see the country should ignore the status of illegal immigrants, people who are breaking Italian laws, because Italians give them work. And let's carry it a step further, because some people break the law by for example working in black the country ought to forget about enforcing it's other laws. The majority of Italians are not working in black, though it is very common, and the majority are not hiring clandestini, maybe the majority has a right to have it's immigration laws enforced.
I think you missed the point, as many often do on this matter. What Ramona is saying is not at all "two wrongs make a right" because she is not suggesting immigration laws should be ignored because some are illegally hiring clandestini, avoiding taxes etc. In fact it is quite the opposite... It is hypocritical to solve a "problem" by picking and choosing which offenses in the matter to focus on, as well as picking and choosing which offenders to focus on, because "illegal immigration" is a two-way street and does not become a phenomenon without willful participation of both citizens of the state and the non-citizen immigrants. By going about things the way LN is, it becomes all too apparent that their goal is not at all based on a desire to bring the country "into line with the laws", but rather to promote a racist and xenophobic approach to society.
On top of that is the greater concept that it is insane to place so much attention, public resources, etc on criminalizing something that is not even actually a hard crime. If the LN and its supporters really were only worried about wether someone has "papers" or not... why not make a blanket decree making them all suddenly legal and provide a system that actually works for everyone to go easily register themselves into the italian financial system and get a CF and "papers"? Why is the focus on kicking those without documents out of the country as opposed to getting them documents?
Posts: 241 | Location (City & State): In giro... | Registered: 29 March 2008
Interesting, on one thread I mention people from rich countries who are here illegally and get a bunch of notes about rules and regulations and then here we get this "why not make a blanket decree making them all suddenly legal". And also that the country ought to just give anyone who comes here free health care.
If you look at the health care issue from another point of view, the idea of giving anyone who happens to get into country free health care is not a workable idea for many reasons. So what is the country supposed to do. It could deny them healthcare compeletly, it could just treat emergencies, which would cause people with the flu to clog the pronto sacorso, and not solve the communicable disease problem, or finally you could treat them and then say ok you are well now so it's time to go home. Is there another option.
finally you could treat them and then say ok you are well now so it's time to go home.
This works for about 3 days, till word spreads through the immigrant community that if you go to the doctor, you will be deported. Then people with infectious disease avoid the doctor and you have epidemics, which spread to the native Italian population. How much money did you save?
quote:
Is there another option.
The other option is already Italian law. It states that undocumented immigrants will be treated and cannot be reported to the police.
jhelm- I know you're from the US so you may not agree with me but I believe that healthcare is a basic human right. This is the idea behind the Hypocratic Oath - doctors and other health professionals have certain duties to humanity which go beyond whether someone can pay them, is here legally or illegally or social class/status etc.
I didn't read the other thread your refer to (re people here illegally from rich countries) but I suspect that the different reactions can be attributed to the fact that if you're, say, Canadian and living here illegally you're just doing it because you happen to like living in Italy not because you or your family will starve if you go back to Canada. It's quite another thing if you arrived here on a leaky inflatable boat from Africa.
I hate to say it Ramona, but I fear you're right about this being a commonly held attitude in the US. Our public health statistics lag behind other wealthy western nations, as well as our disparity between rich and poor. Hopefully that will start to change in the next 4 years.
Well doctors don't work for free inspite of the Hypocratic oath nor do all the other workers in the health care system. They want to be paid or they won't work. I think socialized medicine is the best way to go. But I also think there is no such thing as basic human rights when that so called right might force someone else to do something, for example doctors to work for free or tax payers to pay for the healthcare of anyone who happens to sneak across the border.
I understand the point about infectious disease. I'm guessing that by the time someone with TB or aids for example is sick enough to go to the doctor they've already spread the disease to enough other people that weither or not they are treated doesn't matter much.
A basic human right I do believe in is that everyone should be treated equally before the law. So that would apply to both rich and poor.
A basic human right I do believe in is that everyone should be treated equally before the law. So that would apply to both rich and poor.
I agree completely with this statement -and please note that the Italian constitution enshrines health care as a basic human right: Article 32- " The Republic shall protect the health as a basic right of the individual and as an interest of the community, and shall grant free medical care to the poor. (…) "
I find the idea that doctors should withhold treatment if a patient can't pay absolutely horrifying.
I understand the point about infectious disease. I'm guessing that by the time someone with TB or aids for example is sick enough to go to the doctor they've already spread the disease to enough other people that weither or not they are treated doesn't matter much.
John, there's a reason people with infectious disease are quarantined when their symptoms come to attention of medical personnel. It's to prevent spread of the disease before it turns from a brush fire into a wild fire. If you threaten people with infectious disease with expulsion for visiting a doctor, they never get quarantined. There are diseases you and I and our families haven't been inoculated for.
It's easy to take our current lack of epidemics for granted. It hasn't always been so in western countries, and it isn't so now in many parts of the third world. By the time you realize the moneysaving non-treatment of disease has resulted in an epidemic, it's too late. Edited to correct spelling
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Bill 2,
I don't disagree with the two above statements. On the subject of disease I think the danger is more from people who have a disease but either don't know it or don't have symptoms bad enough to see a doctor. The only real solution is to not let them in the country in the first place and to make it clear that one can't stay in Italy illegally. TB brought in mostly by S. American illegals, is an example which has become a problem in California, one can be a carrier and not be sick. Letting the World know that if you come to Italy you will get free health care and may even be allowed to stay in spite of illegal entry only increases the problems.
Expats in Italy Forum 
They may as well have said "oh no you're not because your non-EU country is rich and you're white." 
So it's not a race-neutral term.
