John, if you can answer Bill's question, you have a hidden talent and should be running for president!

The fact of the matter is that there are rich and poor countries, rich and poor people. Call me smug if you like but that's just the reality in the World. Italy a relatively small country with an already over taxed population is not capable of solving the problems of the World.

I completely disagree with the idea of declaring a sanatoria for the people who are already here. That has been tried in the US, it only leads to inceased illegal immigration. Global economics is all about poor countries developing industry, that's a fine until you realize that it's causing the closure of Italian factories and putting Italians out of work. Working with countries to stop people from departing, that's a good idea. Not sure how you could enforce it when those countries actually want them to leave but can't say so officially. Maybe Italy could furnish airline tickets to anyone who wants to come here legally or otherwise. Yes put the onus on businesses that would work, and here we find the root of the hypocracy, the government pretends to want to stop the problem but won't do the one thing that might stop it. Same thing happens in the US. Also every time a boat load is captured, go after the mafia bosses behind it, put them in jail. Increase patrols on the coast, keep illegal immigrants from entering in the first place and send any that are found already here back immediately. Not humane you say well you either have immigration laws or you don't if you have them enforce them as with any other laws.

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Maybe Italy could furnish airline tickets to anyone who wants to come here legally or otherwise.

Not sure that's gonna decrease immigration John.

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Increase patrols on the coast, keep illegal immigrants from entering in the first place and send any that are found already here back immediately.

You're 100% aligned with Lega Nord on immigration then- that's their plan.

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Global economics is all about poor countries developing industry, that's a fine until you realize that it's causing the closure of Italian factories and putting Italians out of work.

So offering economic development to source countries is out. Screw them, right?

As for patrols on the coast- what do the patrols do with the people they catch? The transit country where the boat left won't let them land there (see www.meltingpot.it for details). Do you stand by as the boat sinks? After the boat sinks do you rescue the people treading water? Then what do you do with them? Send them back to their home country, where they're starving (we won't offer economic aid), and then they come right back again? The devil's in the details.

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The fact of the matter is that there are rich and poor countries, rich and poor people. Call me smug if you like but that's just the reality in the World. Italy a relatively small country with an already over taxed population is not capable of solving the problems of the World."

Of course this is true and the cause of the problem has to be solved at its root. But whilst rich nations are greedily investing in oil, pharmaceutical and who knows what else in "cheap countries" in Africa the development of those countries and their people (and thereby creating democratic societies) is not going to happen. Of course profit is necessary to live in our society but if that profit is always made on the back of someone else's loss then the people who are losing are obviously going to risk their lives to move somewhere better. I mean things must be pretty bad back home if you will spend all your life savings for a long journey on a boat without food and water just to have a better life.

So like I said its a cause and effect situation, the rich can't then complain if the poor then come to their country looking for fortune and free healthcare. Maybe better off (not necessarily rich) people could start by not investing money or buying products from companies who are known to invest in undemocratic regimes.

As far as a sanatoria is concerned I think its a goods idea to welcome and humanely treat people who are already here. Most of them are already working. The article below is from the independent this year, even a conservative like Boris Johnson and several city businessman aren't adverse to the possibility of a sanatoria in London.



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mayoral-c...-amnesty-806310.html

It all goes back to the same thing do you have immigration laws or don't you. Are the laws just meant to be enforced against people from rich countries. Or do you make a law that says if you are from a "rich" country you have to prove you can support yourself without working in Italy and have your own private health insurance but if you come from a poor country come on in you can work and have free health care. What is it that you people are really advocating. And don't tell me it's just about the ones who are already here, because the more you help the ones here the more will come.

"Maybe better off (not necessarily rich) people could start by not investing money or buying products from companies who are known to invest in undemocratic regimes." Doesn't that contradict the idea of helping developing countries most which are run by undemocratic regimes?

I don't know that you can call Italy a rich country as far as the average Italian is concerned, yes of course compared to the average Samolian they are but to say that Italy should keep it's doors open to the poor of the world is just not fair to those who have to pay for it.

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And don't tell me it's just about the ones who are already here, because the more you help the ones here the more will come.

I don't think that's a foregone conclusion. If Italy joins other rich nations in assisting economic development in the immigrant-source countries, immigrants no longer have reason to risk their lives to escape their country. However, you already stated that economic aid is a non-starter, virtually guaranteeing the flow will continue, with or without Lega Nord's (and your own) measures.

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to say that Italy should keep it's doors open to the poor of the world is just not fair to those who have to pay for it.

I can't speak for anyone else, but other than flussi that meet Italy's demand for cheap labor, I'm not for keeping Italy's doors open. Again, by foreswearing assistance for economic development in the immigrant source countries, you are assuring that the flow of immigrants will continue, whether Italy's doors are open or not.

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Originally posted by jhelm:
Or do you make a law that says if you are from a "rich" country you have to prove you can support yourself without working in Italy and have your own private health insurance but if you come from a poor country come on in you can work and have free health care.

I don't understand exactly what is so wrong with this notion. Wealth is grossly mis-distributed on this planet. Too many people have nothing or next to nothing and a comparative few have WAY too much. And don't tell me that it has anything to do with who works hard or not, because that's just not the reality...

jhelm- not sure why you keep saying 'if we have immigration laws we have to enforce them'. I AGREE with this at least in theory. Create legal channels for immigration and start enforcing the law against illegal immigrants and the mafia which transports them. Problem is Italy can't even enforce simple tax and traffic laws -highly unlikely they'll be able to enforce immigration laws.

I thought this discussion was about doctors being forced to denounce illegal immigrants who came to them which will of course lead to people getting sick and dying because of lack of treatment.

I'm not against helping poor countries develop their economies in fact I'm in favor of it. I was just pointing out that what little Italy could do would not have much impact on the immigration problem and as we have seen the more those countries are able to compete the more jobs leave Italy.

Here is what I said about doctors reporting way back "Probably true, health care is not the place to deal with illegal immigration. It's kind of just picking on the most desparate rather than dealing directly with the problem." So we are not really in disagreement on the main point.

The problem is how do you help people who are here and sick without making it seem like an open invitation to illegally come to Italy.

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I thought this discussion was about doctors being forced to denounce illegal immigrants who came to them which will of course lead to people getting sick and dying because of lack of treatment.

Yes, it is.

But then the topic broadened to immigration in general. I'm guessing people aren't comfortable talking about a doctor turning in a sick immigrant to the police, so they'd rather talk about something else?

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Originally posted by Bill 2:

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I thought this discussion was about doctors being forced to denounce illegal immigrants who came to them which will of course lead to people getting sick and dying because of lack of treatment.

Yes, it is.

But then the topic broadened to immigration in general. I'm guessing people aren't comfortable talking about a doctor turning in a sick immigrant to the police, so they'd rather talk about something else?

No, the problem is that the supposed reason for doctors turning in patients is the immigration problem, so it just follows as a logical part of the discussion.

Yes, it's a tangential issue to the question of whether Lega Nord's new law is a good idea. No one wants to come right out and say they support doctors turning in sick immigrants to the police, so they talk about immigration in general instead.

But on the actual topic of the thread: does anyone here support the Lega Nord measure requiring doctors to turn in undocumented immigrants who seek health care to the police, knowing that the threat of expulsion will prevent people who need health care from seeking it?

I get the impression that people who have contributed to this thread are of the opinion that no, doctors should not be forced to do the immigration police's job for them. What more can be said on the topic? Not a lot, apparently, so the discussion logically wandered off track--I don't think it was because people were squeamish about the subject of sick immigrants not getting care, at risk of expulsion, causing epidemics, etc.

Yes, one can never know another's motivation. Yet are there some folks on this thread who seem less comfortable discussing doctors being obliged to report immigrants to the police, than outrage that undocumented immigrants live in Italy.

In any event, Ramona is correct, the thread drifted off topic.

BTW, Italian doctor's association has come out against this law.
http://www.aduc.it/dyn/immigrazione/noti.php?id=237867