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Permesso di Soggiorno
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quote: the Italian tax payers
Based on all the people (Italian and otherwise) dodging their taxes, they wouldn't get much money... |
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| Posts: 166 | Location (City & State): Pozzuoli (NA), Italy | Registered: 07 December 2007 | |
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Volo Libero
Cittadino
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quote: Maybe the Italian tax payers should just provide them with nice new apartments free of charge.
Actually, 50% of the Roma are Italian citizens. And housing projects have been built in several other EU countries, where the Rom camps of Italy no longer exist. One such project underway in Mestre was blocked by your friends from Lega Nord. The Italian citizens of Venice closed Lega's HQ and held a rally supporting the project, at which: "The mayor (of Venice)in addition underlined that the people who would be installed in the camp are to all effects, Venetian citizens of second and third generation, exactly like some of those who are demonstrating. "Their children" - he concluded - "have gone to school for years, trhe parents have regular work, in the collection of iron. I repeat it is a totally instrumental protest". quote: I don't believe Italians in general have any prejudice that comes anywhere close to the prejudice you speak of in the US.
What about this Italian's prejudice? quote: Now you have a group of people responsible for 75% of these crimes. A group that has no ties to any particular country, one that teaches their children not go to school and prepare for real jobs, but teaches them to pick pocket, steal, and beg. Young mothers who drug their babies to keep them placid and innocent looking while they beg on the streets. Young men who beg on the streets looking so down trodden then one might see them joking and fooling around in the parking lot of the local theater, I have.
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| Posts: 14966 | Location (City & State): Friuli | Registered: 21 November 2004 | |
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Volo Libero
Cittadino
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I believe the people at this demonstration have a valid point. They are facing an increasingly activist face of prejudice under the Lega-Berlu govt. Minimizing the evil of that prejudice only serves to strengthen Lega Nord and National Alliance types. quote: The demonstration, Vojislav said, will make Italians understand "that the Roma are very different from how we are depicted" in the media and by some center-right politicians. More than half of the estimated 160,000 Roma in this country are Italian citizens, while most of the remainder are from Romania - since 2007 part of the European Union - or from the former Yugoslavia. But they are usually treated as foreigners.
"This is the first time in six centuries that we are demanding our rights," said Santino Spinelli, another organizer, who is a popular Gypsy musician and a professor of Roma culture at the University of Trieste. "We are demanding to be integrated because we are citizens like any others."
Violent episodes against the Roma in Italy have increased in the past year. The worst violence took place in Naples nearly a month ago, when Roma encampments were set on fire. Last week, protesters from the rightist Northern League party managed to halt work on the construction of a new housing project in Venice, and a Roma camp in central Rome was evacuated.
Silvio Berlusconi's center-right government has promised tough legislation that would allow the police to shut down unauthorized Roma camps. The government also wants to carry out a census of people living in the camps. Interior Minister Roberto Maroni said last week that the issue of the Roma camps would be resolved by the end of the year.
Many of the demonstrators on Sunday wore black triangles, like those that the Nazis forced the Roma to wear in concentration camps.
"Today is a great day for the Rom," said Gina, a Roma from Romania who did not want to give her last name. "Remember that if you forget history, it can repeat itself."
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| Posts: 14966 | Location (City & State): Friuli | Registered: 21 November 2004 | |
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Cittadino
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quote: Originally posted by mjames:
I would really just like to know how safe is Rome. I am orginially from Chicago and well I feel as though I have pull out that pure street knowledge for this trip. Can I do have a tour in two days of Rome?
Rome is actually extremely safe compared to any US city and, in fact, compared to most cities in the world. I'm really surprised that you would think you have to pull out your Chicago 'street cred' for a trip to Rome.  The only crime you have to worry about is non-violent crime ie. pick-pocketing. Just keep an eye on your wallet and you'll be fine. And spend a lot longer in Rome - a 2 day tour would not do it justice! 
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| Posts: 2800 | Location (City & State): Roma | Registered: 09 May 2005 | |
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Permesso di Soggiorno
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JHelm: I don't think you can make comparisons between Roma and Mexicans.
For one, European history puts a completely different perspective on attitudes, and ultimately, government policy. Don't forget, Roma have been in Europe (stateless and up until the Nazi era, relatively nomadic) for centuries and centuries. In this time, the Roma have also been the target of racism, ignorance and ethnic cleansing. Recent racist acts by Lega Nord / Nazis / even the British government are nothing new, and generally are based on fear of those who shun living in one place.
OK, this is perhaps very simplistic, but many Roma (like many "New Travellers" - also victim of this sort of intolerance) don't actually want to live in apartments. Neither do they particularly want to live in shanty camps as provided / tolerated by the Italian state. Alongside the living conditions, don't forget that Roma families have, up until recently, also been denied basic healthcare, schooling and hygiene facilities, because their camps are deemed "temporary".
The Roma, perhaps more than any other ethnic group, have always been the scapegoat for whatever ails a country. Whether it be economic problems, petty crime, you name it, it's the Roma's fault. Back in the old days (at least when I was growing up), it was the Gypsies who stole children... Racism may change its rhetoric, but it remains racism all the same.
I'm not suggesting that the Italian government raze camps, build camps, or evict anyone. What should happen is that Italian authorities consult with those who live in the camps and ask them what they would like. Don't forget: these are people, Europeans, with the same civil rights as anyone living in an apartment.
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| Posts: 305 | Location (City & State): Rome | Registered: 14 May 2005 | |
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Residente
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quote: Originally posted by jhelm:
Should it be ok for some to occupy land they don't own and build housing of a dangerous and unsanitary sort, while the rest of the country must jump through numerous legal hoops to build anything. Should anyone be able to just claim poverty and then live anywhere and in anyway they want. Or should laws and regulations governing health and safety be applied equally to all inhabitants of a country.
Well, my limited experience of Italy is that (n the south at least) there is a great deal of illegal building. Normally very much local people involved..... |
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| Posts: 729 | Location (City & State): Valle d'Aosta | Registered: 24 November 2005 | |
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Cittadino
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So lets review, 50% or Roma are Italian citizens so they are not without a country, apartment projects have been blocked by Lega Nord, but then Roma don't want to live in apartments it's against their centuries old lifestyle. They are just being made scapegoats for failed political policies and are being the subjects of prejudice as bad as that imposed upon black Americans. They are being threatened with explusion from Italy just because their lifestyle does not coincide with that of the rest of the country. It's nice to talk against prejudice and it's a bit of a mental release to be able to justify criticism of the current government, I certainly didn't vote for it, but how about some real honest discussion of the issue. For example, do the Roma pose a problem or not, does their lifestyle pose a problem, are Italians completely wrong in opposing them. I asked for alternative solutions and all I got so far was the government should talk to them and ask what they want. What do you really think should be done. If you really think they are not a problem then nothing should be done, why not just say that. If you think there is a problem then what would you propose.
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| Posts: 2244 | Location (City & State): Belluno, Italy | Registered: 24 June 2005 | |
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Residente
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If Roma don't particularly want to live in apartments, nor in the disgraceful and unhealthy shanties, well, where do they want to live? It sounds like the 50%, the ones who have gone to the trouble of getting citizenship and put their kids in school, would like to stay fixed in one place, whereas others prefer the nomadic life of tradition. Why would the first group reject housing? Or have they? (I understand that the City of Mestre, or possibly the Regione of Veneto, has offered the housing which construction the Lega Nord is trying to block.) Who has been living in the shanties, the first or second group or a mixture?
It sounds like, much as Romanians are lumped with Rom, who could be from anywhere, including Italy, different groups of Rom with different life goals have also been lumped together.
I read that article on the parade in Rome (fitting!) and I get the impression that we're dealing with two distinct groups. If one group prefers the nomadic existence, then that could cause a problem bureaucratically, because if there's one thing bureaucracy loves it's knowing where everyone is at any given time.
The transient nature of real gypsies also makes them scapegoats for anything that goes wrong, like plagues, etc, because nothing was wrong before they appeared and it's assumed the guilty sneak off in the night, when all they were doing was moving on. They were tolerated only as long as the visit was positive: after all, they entertained--still do to some extent--which was seen as a plus.
It's possible that this group wants nothing from the government but to be left alone to wander, not an unreasonable demand.
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| Posts: 960 | Location (City & State): From Lille to Torino | Registered: 12 January 2008 | |
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Volo Libero
Cittadino
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quote: It sounds like the 50%, the ones who have gone to the trouble of getting citizenship and put their kids in school, would like to stay fixed in one place, whereas others prefer the nomadic life of tradition
Please note, as the mayor of Venice said, these are people who have been here for generations, they haven't just arrived and applied for citizenship. |
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| Posts: 14966 | Location (City & State): Friuli | Registered: 21 November 2004 | |
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Volo Libero
Cittadino
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quote: For example, do the Roma pose a problem or not, does their lifestyle pose a problem, are Italians completely wrong in opposing them.
 But you've already stated the following as fact: quote: Now you have a group of people responsible for 75% of these crimes. A group that has no ties to any particular country, one that teaches their children not go to school and prepare for real jobs, but teaches them to pick pocket, steal, and beg. Young mothers who drug their babies to keep them placid and innocent looking while they beg on the streets. Young men who beg on the streets looking so down trodden then one might see them joking and fooling around in the parking lot of the local theater, I have.
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| Posts: 14966 | Location (City & State): Friuli | Registered: 21 November 2004 | |
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Permesso di Soggiorno
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quote: Bossi expressed his admiration for the mob who attacked the Roms in Napoli for 'managing what government can't".
It is well known that Bossi as head of Lega Nord not only wants to rid all of italy of foreigners but also of half of italy itself by building a virtual wall between north and South Italy and making North its own republic - cutting off the South entirely. It's not just foreigners that he hates ! |
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| Posts: 121 | Location (City & State): province of vicenza | Registered: 13 June 2008 | |
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Permesso di Soggiorno
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Lorna: exactly!
Maybe, just maybe, if the south were separated from the north and all its tax income, the south would have to change and get rid of organised crime. Right now, our tax money goes to what: subsidizing camorra activity in Napoli, for example?
But the problem is this: Italy is a federal state. It can't just devolve into provinces or regions. Like any other country in Europe, it's considered a national state, which means it has to sort out its internal affairs. We ask Turkey, for example, to sort out its human rights. We ask the UK to ratify certain working rights for agency employees. We can't ask Italy to not sort out its internal problems.
My beef with the Lega Nord et al is that they seek to deal with economic problems and organised crime by floating them off to some never-never land. You can't draw a line from Napoli to Pescara and say "this is north, this is south".
Of course,they'll find any way to excuse their inability to govern, and among these ways will be the foreigners. They've started with the most "obvious" - the Roma. Then we'll see the vilification of other non-EU, perhaps more aggro against Albanians and Romanians, then perhaps more aggro against refugees. Finally, expect to see a backlash against Europeans and North Americans. Carole B talked about a Kristal Nacht (sp?) and I don't think she's off the mark.
History repeats itself and those who don't learn its lessons are condemned to repeat it.
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| Posts: 305 | Location (City & State): Rome | Registered: 14 May 2005 | |
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Volo Libero
Cittadino
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quote: Maybe, just maybe, if the south were separated from the north and all its tax income, the south would have to change and get rid of organised crime.
It would strengthen camorra and mafia, as they would move into fill the void left by the departing central government. |
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| Posts: 14966 | Location (City & State): Friuli | Registered: 21 November 2004 | |
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Moderator
Cittadino
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quote: It would strengthen camorra and mafia, as they would move into fill the void left by the departing central government.
You hit the nail squarely on the head with that statement! |
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| Posts: 2605 | Location (City & State): Connecticut, USA | Registered: 07 October 2005 | |
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Cittadino
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quote: Originally posted by English teacher:
But the problem is this: Italy is a federal state.
Sorry to quibble but as far as I understand it Italy is not a federal state like the US or Australia. It's highly centralised and the regions/states have very little autonomy. In fact, the Lega Nord has been making the argument that Italy should become a federation in order to give the North and South more autonomy. This would be a step towards Padanian independence.
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| Posts: 2800 | Location (City & State): Roma | Registered: 09 May 2005 | |
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Permesso di Soggiorno
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People don’t seem to have noticed the satire in the paragraph quoted by Bill 2 at the beginning of this thread. In so many words the paragraph states that ‘now that we’ve finished hunting down the communists, let’s turn our attention to the immigrants. The communist hunt has been suspended, given that the communists have become extinct except in those places where no one works’ Instead of endorsing racism, the author appears to be making fun of it! The words are reminiscent of Jonathan Swift—of his black humor when he recommends that the Irish eat their children as a way of dealing with the problem of poverty:
"A young healthy child well nursed, is, at a year old, a most delicious nourishing and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled; and I make no doubt that it will equally serve in a fricassee, or a ragout." Jonathan Swift, “A Modest Proposal,” 1729.
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| Posts: 382 | Location (City & State): Ormond Beach, FL 32174 | Registered: 23 October 2005 | |
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