Having read the Being gay in Italy thread I wanted to ask this but didn't want to go off topic. In that thread a member says he is married and goes to the saunas to meet other men. Before I go on, I am in no way homophobic, having worked in the airlines for years and being surrounded by gay men, I have no problem with anyones sexual preference, men or women. What I don't understand is why gay men marry a woman then continue to sleep with men on the side. I have worked with many men who are married with children but they sleep with men. In this day and age, being gay is acceptable in most places so why do they have to lie? The cheating is bad enough but when they are not practising safe sex (as a couple of my colleagues boasted to me) then they are risking the lifes of their wives. This is a genuine question and not meant to accuse anyone of anything, I'm just very curious as to why men do this? Can anyone enlighten me?

The answer to this is very simple! Society has not accepted gays enough for certain gays to be comfortable about coming out of the closet, therefore, many gays feel that it is “easier” to live this type of lifestyle of cheating, deceit, and trying to be another person. Right now you have Sarah Palin calling for a federal ban on same-sex marriage, therefore, if you don’t have a strong character or live in a small town, how normal would that make you feel about being gay? Then of course there are those that are bi-sex, which is never 50/50, therfore, those are drawn more to women, maybe 70/30 -- this explains the marriage.

Possibly also to have children?

I wonder how this affects said children? As an adult I can honestly say I would have been confused if my father had turned around and told me he was gay, as a child and especially as a teen I think I would have been horrified. Don't jump on me for saying this - I'm looking at it from the POV of my now teen son and his attitudes to homosexuality. It's something he and his peers are very touchy about as they are discovering their own proclivities and any boy that is perceived to be gay is treated with derision. Believe me some subjects are not open to rational conversation at this age, try as I might!

Alyson, this explains even further the fake marriages. If society accepted gays without any issue, then no gay teenager would be treated babdly, which sadly can often lead to suicide. Gay teens are very prone to suicide because of how others treat them. How sad we can't love each other!

It must be awful for teenagers growing up and struggling with their sexuality. Children can be so cruel with anyone who is different from them as can adults. It's no wonder that many of the jobs I have had (airlines, cosmetics) are filled with proud to be gay men with no fear of ridicule or derision, in fact they are welcomed with open arms! I mentioned on another thread a while back that OH's brother is gay (as was his uncle) and he married a woman but carries on his relationships with men. He did it for money though, thinking the older women he married was about to die soon and he would inherit her estate. 30 years later she's still alive and kicking and when he comes to Capri (he lives in Rome) he brings both the wife and his boyfriend. Serves him right and hope she outlives him for badness! Do you think that the wives of these gay men are aware of their husbands sexuality? I wonder because I can usually sniff out a gay man at 100 paces and am very rarely wrong but surely these women must have a suspicion about their husbands. Do you think they just turn a blind eye to keep the family together? The manager of the department store I used to work in was married with 1 child and was gay. He used to come into OH's restaurant with his wife and his boyfriend and they used to hold hands under the table and rub each others legs with the wife sitting next to them! I don't think him staying in the closet was anything to do with children as he openly hated children, even his own so I think that was just a question of him thinking he would be more successful career wise if he was married than if he was gay.

I was just saying that the desire for children maybe one reason, among many others.

Damien, I would really love to know how I address this. It isn't only my son that thinks this way, it is all his friends. Even those that I personally suspect maybe be gay. As you say there is no encouragement to be honest about your sexuality, even less at the all boys boarding school my son goes to! If anything if probably makes it much harder.

Alyson, your son is just going along with the crowd. If he spoke up in favour of gays, he would be accused of being gay himself. Even if some of his friends are gay they will not speak up either as they will be in the minority and could suffer at school for it. They may be completely different when away from their friends but they probably want to be part of the crowd so when one says something about gays, they all join in. OH's grandson is 10 and about to start high school. When he is at school and with friends, a common insult to be heard from them is "gay boy" "don't be such a gay" etc. I have given him into trouble many times for saying things like that but he just laughs and doesn't think anything is wrong with that. At home though, he lets us put nail polish and lip gloss on him, puts our shoes on with no embarrassment but wouldn't be like that in front of friends as they would say he was gay! He has grown up in a very open household where they can talk about anything but when they go to school they are influenced by other people who may not have the same "live and let live" attitude so they copy others to fit in. Your son will probably grow out of it Alyson and even though he may not want to talk about things like that to you, keep pushing to show he can speak about anything to you. I think the teachers in these same sex schools should be doing their bit to help with discrimination, bring it out in the open to show there should be no shame if someone is gay and although discussing things like that in class probably would be the cause of much hilarity, it opens up the subject instead of brushing it under the carpet as if it doesn't exist.

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he openly hated children, even his own

That can't be good for the kids- growing up knowing their father hates them.

Interesting discussion, it's reminding me that my youngest daughter from the first marriage and the daughter of my in the middle steady girl friend both had gay boys as best friends while growing up in the San Diego area. And I don't think either one of them suffered much from their peers. I suppose it depends greatly on the area one lives in.

I do also know some men I always thought were gay who married women and seem to be living straight lives, but I don't know what goes on in private. I suppose a lot of gay men don't want to acknowledge it even to themselves, or they just try to conform to the expectations of society.

It's interesting to note that even though being gay seems much more accepted in some areas of the US than in Italy, men in Italy are generally much more affectionate to each other than in the US, you will almost never see two men in the US kissing each other on the check.

On a more poitive note and I am not ashamed to say it moved me to tears, cancer survivor, advocate and Nanny alum Fran Drescher has just written this great editorial, which I think everyone should read!

She says:

"When did it become okay to discriminate? What country are we all living in anyway? I thought this was America, am I wrong?

Wake up folks before it’s too late! This country was founded on the premise of separation of church & state. And why do you suppose that was? Because back in the day of our forefathers, (ya know, the dudes who fought and died for our freedoms) life under an oppressive British empire was more than they could take.

Living in a “my way or the highway” nation sucked! Dictation, Denial and Discrimination was the name of the game until our founding fathers decided that they’d had it!

“Let freedom ring!”, they shouted. And a HUGE part of that freedom was of course separation of church and state. If you are truly an American, (and not some closeted fascist) you are part of the privileged few on the planet who get to live in a country that supports tolerance of diversity. Heck we celebrate it! We can be who we want to be, pray to whomever we choose to pray and live as equals regardless of gender, race, creed or sexual orientation.

To think that in this upcoming election there is actually a proposition to add an amendment to the California Constitution to legalize discrimination! Shame on us! This proposition is not about gay marriage; it’s about hate, discrimination and intolerance of diversity. It is wholesale, unadulterated hate-mongering and it MUST be snuffed out in a dramatic fashion at once to illustrate to those behind it that in America we embrace the neighbor who might be different from us and are proud of it!

So to all you TRUE Americans, get out there and vote on November 4th, and let’s reject hate.

Get all your friends, co-workers and relatives to vote too and make sure you vote NO on proposition 8.

Freedom Fighter,

Fran Drescher"

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Originally posted by jhelm:
Interesting discussion, it's reminding me that my youngest daughter from the first marriage and the daughter of my in the middle steady girl friend both had gay boys as best friends while growing up in the San Diego area. And I don't think either one of them suffered much from their peers. I suppose it depends greatly on the area one lives in.

But look at what you have written. The best friends of these boys weren't other boys, they were girls. How would these boys have coped in all male environment? Also this seems fairly typical to me, at Uni the lads that were gay hung out with the girls. Maybe it's because we are more accepting as females? I honestly don't care about a person's sexual orientation. If Alex did come home with a boyfriend, fine, my only regret would be no grandchildren unless he used an alternative way to have them. In many ways I think the torment I'm starting to go through as his interest in girls increases is probably far worse! I've already wondered what he saw in his first "girlfriend"!!

Interesting question and interesting thread.

In my humble opinion an as much interesting question is “why do some women marry gay men?”.

I have a personal view that women’s expectations from a marriage are MUCH more materialistic than men’s – and I say this in the full awareness that it’ll be perceived as outrageously misogynous (it isn’t, but still).
I don’t know if in the UK or in the US women have a higher respect of themselves than their Italian counterparts; down our way a marriage is still a girl’s best way to climb up the social ladder.
But how materialistic can you get to marry a man who just sees you as a walking womb, or as a housemaid and enjoys sex somewhere else?

I won’t buy into the “he turned gay after marriage”.

my first boyfriend in high school/college turned out to be gay after we broke up. he has since found a partner and been in a long-term monogomous relationship for quite some time. we've remained friendly, and he's confessed to me that he still thinks about marrying a woman. He says it's always been his dream to have a family and a "normal" home life.

Maybe it's a selfish one, but i'm sure it's not an easy decision to live in the open about one's sexuality and accept a lifestyle alternative to the cultural norm and perhaps to their own previous beliefs of what their lives would be.

That said, I still don't believe it's acceptable to dupe a future spouse into marrying you just to fulfill some fantasy of "normalcy".

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Originally posted by JAPrufrock:
I won’t buy into the “he turned gay after marriage”.

I don't buy into that either. But as some previous posts point out, some gay men do not acknowledge their homosexuality. I've no doubt that some women marry gay men because they don't know the truth about their husbands' sexual orientation.

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But look at what you have written. The best friends of these boys weren't other boys, they were girls.

I didn't say that, so it's an assumption. In one case it was true, but in the other, one of the gay guys best friends was a heterosexual male who became my daughters boyfriend. Everyone is different.

I know personally of a few cases in which men got married and had kids, to discover later on they weren't hetero-, or at best they were bi-. In other words, there was no deception, at least not deliberate.

There was a time when not only was homosexuality illegal, there were huge social stigmas attached to the orientation. Men avoided coming out for a variety of reasons, and often getting married was a way of denying reality--either that or covering up (Hollywood regularly married up its gay stars--viz Rock Hudson--to cover for them). Others simply had no idea until later in life.

Also as boys, many were told that homosexuals were creeps lurking in the bushes preying on young boys--not exactly the sort of role model a young man wanted to emulate. Add to that the notion that homosexuality was "curable" and all it took was a "good woman" to do the job, and you had a situation ripe for exploitation.

I agree with Alyson, women are more tolerant of gays because there is no threat to them. The amount of times I have seen men puffing themselves up, putting on a deep voice and acting the macho man when confronted by a gay man as if they are about to jump on them! There are not many men tolerant of gay men whereas if they come across gay women then it fulfils some sort of fantasy for them (unless they look like a Russian shot putter). Perhaps if a woman marries a man who is gay, she is looking for a different type of relationship, one that fulfils her emotional needs rather than sexual needs. The reason women get on so well with gay men is that on the whole they are very feminine, they like to talk about the nonsense females talk about (what's going on in Desperate Housewives, SATC etc), you can talk to them about sex without getting embarrassed, just like a girlfriend really.

I think throughout the world there are women marrying for materialistic reasons rather than for love. Look at how many countries still have arranged marriages, the bringing together of two people purely for financial reasons. I know that in the Middle East, women, who are second class citizens anyway, are used for having children and cleaning the house. Many men in these countries still adopt the practice of marrying a woman, have sex with her only out of necessity to create an heir then sleep with men for the enjoyment part.

I think that the covering up of Hollywood stars still goes on. There are many rumours of big stars who are married/in relationships but who are actually gay. I have my suspicions about some. I think their agents/studios feel that they will lose their female fans if they "come out", a lot of nonsense as we female fans would love them even more if they were gay! How horrible it must be for people who have to live their lives as a lie, very sad.

Yes, look at Rupert Everett! He doesn't give a fig these days, not that I'm sure he ever did, more his publicity machine, then all the rent boy stuff came out and in the end who cared anyway!!

The comment of filomena's about boys being told gay men are creeps isn't easy to squash when it is still possible for men in boys schools to take advantage of their charges. A few years ago at my son's school one of the school vicars was discharged as it was alleged he was abusing the boys that went to him for counsel. Irrespective of how you think about homosexuality, that is a sick man! I would feel the same if he had been like this with girls, but to the young boys at the school it just strengthens their belief that it is "wrong" to be homosexual, so who would dare to come out in that environment?

That's funny you mention Rupert Everett. He has been coming into the restaurant since he was a young penniless actor and never hid the fact he was gay. OH used to feed all the struggling up and coming actors and actresses who used to play the theatres and he says they used to get up to all sorts to get a foot on the ladder. Now they come in older, famous and more respectable, they don't have to do those things any more.

I agree about how homosexuality is perceived by certain people. These people who deliberately work in an environment to be near young boys/girls are peodophiles and children need to be taught the difference between peodophilia and homosexuality.

quote:

Originally posted by alyson:
one of the school vicars was discharged as it was alleged he was abusing the boys that went to him for counsel. Irrespective of how you think about homosexuality, that is a sick man! I would feel the same if he had been like this with girls, but to the young boys at the school it just strengthens their belief that it is "wrong" to be homosexual, so who would dare to come out in that environment?

As ragazza scozzese wrote, those who abuse young children are pedophiles NOT homosexuals. A pedophile has no interest in men but in children. Children need to be taught the fact that a pedophile is a BAD thing but a pedophile is not gay.

By the way, why is it that we have only discussed gay men marrying women? What about all of the gay women who marry men?

Yes - I knew someone in high school whose mum had left his dad for another woman. It was really, really difficult for him. Not just because his parents had split up but because it raised all kinds of questions about his sense of masculinity, sexuality etc.

Actually I know several gay women who have been married to men in the past. So I guess it's not just gay men who do this.

quote:

Originally posted by Cristina:

quote:

Originally posted by alyson:
one of the school vicars was discharged as it was alleged he was abusing the boys that went to him for counsel. Irrespective of how you think about homosexuality, that is a sick man! I would feel the same if he had been like this with girls, but to the young boys at the school it just strengthens their belief that it is "wrong" to be homosexual, so who would dare to come out in that environment?

As ragazza scozzese wrote, those who abuse young children are pedophiles NOT homosexuals. A pedophile has no interest in men but in children. Children need to be taught the fact that a pedophile is a BAD thing but a pedophile is not gay.

By the way, why is it that we have only discussed gay men marrying women? What about all of the gay women who marry men?

I wasn't suggesting gay men are also paedophiles. All paedophiles are sick people, a gay man who is also a paedophile is therefore a sick man. One who then works in a position of trust with, in this true example, young boys, is a sick person irrespective of whether that person is gay or not. If it were one of the school matrons interfering with the boys, as I said, I would feel the same. It was to show why the teenage boys at my sons school react to homosexuality they way they do, as I had already explained. Someone setting a bad example is not going to make himself a poster boy for gay rights, is he?