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Expats in Italy Forum Moving to/Living in Italy Everything Else More Italian-bashing for you all out there!
Expats in Italy Forum Moving to/Living in Italy Everything Else More Italian-bashing for you all out there!Page 1 2
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Turista |
Wow, this is pretty offensive stuff.
I don't think you need to be "sour" to observe cultural behaviour. I think it is perfectly valid to point out that pushing into complete strangers in an attempt to get where you want to be is rude behaviour - no matter who or where you are. Nevermind the fact that it's even WRITTEN on the metro doors that you should allow people to get off before getting on! Just like when you're waiting to be served in a shop and someone marches infront of you, purposely intending to take your turn. Or when some idiot races up behind you on the autostrada, flashing their headlights to get you to move, even though you are in the process of overtaking. I drive 150 kms a day... I could go on but I won't. Some types of behaviour are simply cultural differences which can be misinterpreted. Others are blatant rudeness and a lack of civility which results from being made to believe by your mamma that you are the centre of the universe and life revolves around YOU. Sad to say it, but I see this way more here than I ever did in the UK... Emma http://www.emmina-milano.blogspot.com |
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Cittadino |
No problem complaining about rude behavior, but to stereotype a whole nation is not right. Where I live I see much more polite behaviour than rude. It's just that the rude ones really stand out.
The example of the autostrada can even be taken another way. There are the rude jerks that come up flashing lights and riding two feet from your bumper. But there are many (I think more) who will wait for you to move over, and don't we think it's polite behaviour when most people will move to the right when they see a faster car behind them even without the flashing lights and tail riding. In the US people tend to think they own the lane they are in and don't move for anyone. |
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Cittadino |
Whether one's actions are acceptable or boorish is often a matter of perspective:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/magazine/03traffic-t....magazine&oref=slogin It's a long article. If you haven't the time or the inclination, you might like this quote from it: "Europe intuitively understands what one engineer meant when in midsentence he said to me, “perfect England,” meaning culturally mandated compulsive queuing, and, “perfect Italy,” meaning culturally mandated compulsive nonqueuing." This message has been edited. Last edited by: Emily, |
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Volo Libero Cittadino |
Those diagrams were giving me autoscuola flashbacks. Shudder.
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Residente |
I swear that the secretaries at my work, who by the way are both Italian married to non-Italian men, complain about this ALL DAY LONG! I mean, although moms tend to get blamed for everything, I willing to go out on a limb and say that is more true in Italy from MY experience. |
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Permesso di Soggiorno |
I agree...also from my experience. |
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Permesso di Soggiorno |
What is offensive? Me saying that England sits somewhat uneasy in that community of peers the EU is? I thought this was a proven fact. How is this offensive? The UK has a list of opt-outs no other EU country has. Schengen agreement, to name just one. If we really want to make a comparison (oh, so boring....) between Italy and the UK, well I’d tend to say that the GRI (Global Rudeness Index) is roughly the same. It’s the RCI (Rudeness Concentration Index) that changes. In Italy we are a bunch of uneducated spoilt brats who flash their lights on the autostrada, but on the whole are rather innocuous. Our RCI describes a low-intensity, persistent, annoying and harmless rudeness. The English are, on the contrary, perfectly educated folks in their day to day business, with their queues, their rounded and smooth elbows, their “What a lovely hat, Mrs. Heathbud. Fancy another scone?”. Unfortunately, from time to time there’s a click in those well-mannered heads and you see plastic chairs flying over the cities of Europe. Or hoodies prowling the streets at night looking for someone to stab, out of boredom. So England’s RCI is definitely high (that is a higher-density rudeness) – mostly well-behaved, with the occasional fit of scary, unjustified blind nuttery. Same amount of rudeness, different concentration. |
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Residente |
Well, speaking as an English football fan _and_ player who is neither tattoed or aggressive I find quite a number of stereotypes about the English here too. My women's amateur team here play, like in all Italian football, behind fences and barriers. In the UK as a fan I could get out of my seat at my professional team's stadium and walk on to the pitch. Nobody does except perhaps to celebrate on the last day of the season. I've seen much more evidence of football violence here (and more tattoos for that matter!).
Why shouldn't we express scepticism about certain aspects of the EU? As net contributors seeing, for example, the jump in BMW and Mercedes sales in Greece after accession does tend to lead to a certain cynicism. As for the Scots, I don't think they have any more natural enthusiasm for the EU at all, except if they were to leave the Union they might need more EU support. Mind you, I think some of you are reading some of the more right wing press, and please don't forget that this period is known in the press world as the 'silly season': it might not have been a very humorous piece, but nobody takes this sort of thing very seriously... well, not in the UK anyway. |
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Permesso di Soggiorno |
I’m a Guardian reader (on-line edition, actually), so not really a right-winger.
I have never lived anywhere else and I lack anecdotic evidence. I’ll therefore have to resort to statistics. So: Italy is a net contributor to the EU budget too The most recent data on homicide rate say that Italy has a lower rate than England + Wales and Scotland as single entities and the UK as a whole. This notwithstanding we signed the Schengen Treaty and people can get in and out of the borders with France, Austria and Slovenia without ID or passport. Unlike the UK. I'm the first to criticize Italy in the many occasions where we deserve it, but if this aims at being a rational, serious exchange of ideas, and a rational comparison among countries, you’ve got to come up with some facts. You won't convince me that any nation is in any way better than another based on "a friend of a friend of mine's hairdresser had an uncle who lived in Italy and who didn't use to queue at the post office". I stand by my point. Rudeness in England is by no means lower than in Italy: it's just more concentrated in certain domains. |
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Permesso di Soggiorno |
What I concede (see? I'm not that nasty) is that the EDUCATIONAL level in the UK is WAY higher than in Italy. Italy lags behind virtually all EU nations.
And a lower educational level can brings to a certain level of.... er.... well, bad manners, ok. THIS is a real shame for Italy, and one you'd be allowed to slag us off for. |
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Cittadino |
Do you have any evidence as I think you are wrong. |
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Permesso di Soggiorno |
JHelm might be right. Simple yardstick. Figures from UK yesterday show that 40% (sadly, not a typo) of children aged 11 in the state education system are unable to pass a test of basic proficiency in reading, writing and arithmetic. (This, equally sadly, is seen as progess, because it's a 1% improvement on last year). And the figures for Italy are...? (ps. For absolute clarity, these UK figures don't mean that 40% of 11 year-olds can't read, write, or do sums. But they do have below-standard abilities in these areas) Blog: www.villasfor2.com/aboutabruzzo - 2 Brits, 3 cats, 1 dream - Photostream: www.flickr.com/photos/22198513@N04/ |
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Permesso di Soggiorno |
Of course I have! See pg.142: Educational attainment level, percentage of 25- to 64-year-olds in the population with tertiary education |
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Turista |
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Cittadino |
Sorry I don't see where the level of tertiary education has anything to do with quality of education. It only has to do with the number of people who go on to the higher levels. And the chart reflects a very broad age range.
Since we are talking about todays education take a look at page 140 it looks to me that Italy has a greater percentage of the population in tertiary education than most all the other countries in Europe including the UK. Perhaps this has something to with the quality of education they are getting now. Or maybe just something to do with the availability of higher education which would also put Italy ahead of the other nations. And seem to put Italy in a good position for the future. |
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Cittadino |
jhelm- not sure if you're aware of this but Italian tertiary education is in shambles. Of course things are probably better(as usual) in Belluno- but this is the reality here in Rome at least.
I read in La Repubblica a few days ago that Italy has the smallest percentage of students who manage to actually finish their uni degrees in Europe (something like 40% of those who start). From what my friends (who mostly went to La Sapienza here in Rome) tell me university here is an endurance test in which only those who will tolerate the most kafka-esque bureaucracy will survive. Lectures are huge and many students never get to meet an actual professor during their degree. In addition, unlike most of the rest of Europe, there are no student stipends or loans here - so access to university is limited to the well off and those who live in cities where there is a university. And from the academic POV - my mother is a scientist who has spent time as a visiting professor at a northern Italian university and she tells me that there are NO prospects for young, bright scientists here. Young bright Italian scientists almost all go overseas where there is research funding and once they've done this it is very hard for them to return to Italy due to the hiring culture of Italian universities (professors usually hire their proteges rather than advertising internationally for the best person as is done at Australian universities). |
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Residente |
Ramona is right on regarding University education here in Italy and research possibilities for scientists- I would just add, its not only scientists, but really any kind of research that involves a secure source of funding (so all research, basically). This pushes the best scholars out of Italy, even those that would rather be in Italy. Yes, in many ways the Italian lower education has its advantages (especially compared to where I come from in the U.S.), but the problems with higher education seem almost completely unaddressed!
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Cittadino |
I will have this discussion with some professors we know. My comments above were in reference to the survey mentioned. I'll just say that I know or have met several young people who in spite of the problems have managed just fine to finish their degrees in a reasonable amount of time. It's always easy to blame the system for one's own lack of perserverance. Maybe there are other reasons for the low percentage of people finishing, for example discouragement with the lack of jobs, therefore why go to all the trouble.
I know there is a lack of funding for research, however, but those who want to do it seem to manage, one of my wife's aunts for example a cardiologist, invited to head a seminar in the US this summer. I'm not ignoring the problems in Italy, just pointing out that things are always not so black and white. I still think its |
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Turista |
Perhaps our British friend should recall the massacre at the Champion's Cup final in Brussels, Belgium, prior to which the Liverpool fans crushed to death the Juventus fans in the stands.
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Permesso di Soggiorno |
No. This is utterly unacceptable. To use emotive words like 'massacre' and then state that Liverpool fans 'crushed to death' Juventus fans implies mass-murder, which this tragic accident most certainly was not. The reason Italian fans died at the Heysel Stadium was the same reason that Liverpool fans died in similar circumstances at Hillsboro a few years later: overcrowding; poor crowd control; and an antiquated stadium at which the crowd control barriers which would have prevented such a tragedy simply broke. Yes, the Heysel disaster was triggered by inter-fan rivalry. But this was no more severe than you'd have found then - and still find now - at many European football matches of this importance. But without such terrible consequences. To misrepresent this awful event to score a point is a cheap shot. Blog: www.villasfor2.com/aboutabruzzo - 2 Brits, 3 cats, 1 dream - Photostream: www.flickr.com/photos/22198513@N04/ |
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Cittadino |
Well I spoke with one of my wife's aunts who is a professor at the University of Padova last night. As far as research money goes, it's only getting worse with the new government.
But she is pretty positive about the situation for students. She contends that the high drop out rate is mostly due to the fact that students are not really followed and that the structure of the system puts too much responsibility on the students. In other words those who do not have the personal commitment to finish their degrees drop out. Those who do finish some taking an extra year to finish. |
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