I have been offered a position just to the North of Vicenza and my wife and I are trying to find information about a number of things. First off, the position pays about 7,200 Euros (before taxes) per month. We currently live very well in Colorado Springs, CO USA on the equivalent of 8,100 Euros ($12,500) per month, but we have no idea how far 7,200 Euros goes in this area of Italy.

We are particularly concerned about housing and transportation. I hate to sound spoiled, but as Americans we are accustomed to large houses; ours is 3,500 sqft of new construction and we have a mortgage of about 970 Euros per month – can we expect the same in Italy? We also own two new cars and enjoy the freedom they allow us. In short, can our lifestyle in Italy, with respect to home and autos, be the same? Before I catch a lot of flack for those questions, I know life is more than big houses and nice cars and that living abroad will add new and exciting experiences to our lives, we just want to know what to expect so we can adequately prepare ourselves for the adjustments.

My wife has a Masters Degree in Guidance and Counseling and has been a high school guidance counselor for 15 years. She is not sure if she wants to work in Italy, but we would like to know if she even can. In other words, can she legally work in Italy? If so, what are her options?

Also, we have a 12 year old son and a 10 year old daughter; both are very bright and advanced for their age groups in Colorado. What are the options for them with respect to school? We would like to put them in an international school, but we also want to make sure they have the opportunity to learn Italian (a.k.a. they are required to study it in school). I’ve heard the public schools in this part of Italy are very good, but we are very concerned about culture shock and don’t want to cause a setback in their education.

These are but a few of the basic questions. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

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First off, the position pays about 7,200 Euros (before taxes) per month.

You should be able to rent a nice place on that salary. You'll be making 5 times what most Italians earn.

Believe me I am not expert in any of the areas you have requested information...but there is valuable info on this site...I have been to Vicenza several times by train from Venice and nowhere have I seen the kind of house you are describing...or that I have seen in colorado..houses here tend to be smaller and not nearly as modern as you are describing...having cars here legally can be a challenge (I would do a search on driving or owning a car in Italy to give you an idea)...Vicenza is near an American base so the school question might be answered if you did another search...also you might really find it helpful if you could come here and could look around to see for yourself....money wise you should be fine Venice is more expensive then where you are looking and I could do it here...hopefully your salary is not tied to the dollar and stays the same no matter what...that could cause problems if it isn't..anyway I hope this helps in some small way...good luck

First of all, congratulations! Most people on this forum would give their eye teeth to have such an opportunity...

Back to earth: assuming your company gets the paperwork done on your behalf, you need to know that the visa permitting you to work here will be for you alone. Your family will be able to join you as just that: family. This means that unless your wife gets her own work visa, she will not be able to work in Italy, even free-lance.

Second, most international schools offer Italian language lessons--I don't think they'd do much business if they didn't. You should make sure they also offer the International Baccalaureate (you can find discussions of this if you search this forum) because if your children stay here long enough to graduate from high school, this certificate will stand them in good stead for whatever they want to do next, including getting into a good university back in the States.

You'll have to speak with a tax expert about your liability over here, but I can tell you you are way over the $85,000 ceiling to be tax exempt in the US.

As Bill says, you should be able to rent very nicely, but unless you find an empty palazzo, no apartment is going to come near the floor space you're accustomed to. Houses out in the country can be found, of course, and you can find furnished rentals, but they are usually holiday (ie, short term) lets and very expensive. There's also the problem for the landlord, who might be using the property for his own residence purposes, in which case you could not apply for residency at that address, and this snag would seriously complicate things for you. That said, go through a reliable agent and make sure that whatever you rent the contract will be registerd--they charge a lot for this but it's well worth it in the end.

That brings us to: will your employment last a number of years? If so, you are probably looking at bringing your personal belongings, furniture etc. In that case, unless they are gas-guzzling SUVs (gas is even more expensive over here, but you probably already know that), you might as well ship your cars too, especially if your company is paying for this move. Word of caution: if you go this route, make sure that your cars meet EU standards, which can be pretty arcane, and Italy might throw in some of its own regulations. Also remember that after one year here, you will need to register them for Italian plates, and you will need an Italian driver's license (also see forum discussions: unless CO has an agreement with Italy, you'll need to go to drivers' ed).

If this sounds like a mountain of paperwork, I notice you mention a mortgage, so you have already been there, done that, got the tee-shirt: settling in Italy is no worse, just the lines are probably longer.

A few thoughts,
The salary you quoted is before taxes, consider that probably something more than 50% will be deducted before you get a check.

Will you have a long term contract, there are a lot of well qualified Italians willing to work for much less so be carefull that they are not just hiring you short term to pick your brain.

Is this an American company, that would be much safer in terms of the above.

With around 3600 euro after taxes you can live well enough but probably not like you live in the US. Your wife will not likely get a job. The avererage Italian engineer etc. is getting around 1,300 to max 2,000 after taxes and his wife probably works as well so the net family income is say 2,800 after taxes. They live most likely in a very small apartment have one newer car and maybe one old one, their kids go to public schools. They get by and have a pretty good life by being very conservative on how they spend their money. This doesn't sound like the life you are used to in Colorado.

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unless CO has an agreement with Italy, you'll need to go to drivers' ed

Italy doesn't convert any US state's license.

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more than 50% will be deducted before you get a check.

I thought the maximum tax bracket was 43%? Maybe I am wrong...

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Originally posted by dls_in_us:
First off, the position pays about 7,200 Euros (before taxes) per month.

Is he eligible for the tax free status (Italian taxes) that Americans get for the first 2 years of working in Italy? My first 2 years working at an International School here in Italy, I was tax free. Maybe only teachers at International Schools get this tax break. I've no idea. Also, isn't the limit for U.S. taxes 100,000 now? Or is it still 85,000?

May I ask what kind of work you are in? And if it's engineering, what's the name of the company that is shelling out 7200 euro a month?!? Because I want my husband to apply for a job there!! My husband is an engineer with about 10 years experience (and 2 degrees from the University of Florence), and we were jumping for joy like we'd hit the jackpot when he received a job offer in Torino for 2000 euro a month! For years, he made about 1100 euro per month.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't try to replicate the lifestyle you have at home in the U.S. I've tried that and it just makes life overseas more frustrating. Life in Italy is what it is, and you just have to accept it.

Thank you all for your replies.

I want to start with Amy’s – I sympathize with your frustration regarding the wages in Italy – I spent hours reading threads on this forum after I made my post (I certainly should have read them before I posted) and sadly there are a lot of people suffering the same level of frustration with the Italian pay scales. I’m sorry if I in any way offended you, or anyone else, by posting that salary figure – I did it out of ignorance. It was inconsiderate and I apologize.

At the same time, congratulations on your husband’s pay raise! That’s fantastic.

With respect to what company I have the offer from, I’m sorry, it would be improper for me to provide that information. I can say that I too have an engineering undergraduate from one of the world’s best engineering schools and an MBA from a top US business school. As for what I do, I’m an executive specializing in high-tech Asian and American markets and an operations improvement expert. My job will be to improve their operations and help them expand into more markets – hopefully creating a few more jobs for Italy.

Hi I'd like to add a few words. If that 7k2/mth has to cover housing & utilities for a family of 4, car-related expenses, and education expenses as well, I'm not sure if there's much left for savings. Otherwise, sounds okay. That half off is roughly right cos it's not only for the national tax, but also social security contribution, regional tax, and some I'd call surprise expenses (that you have to pay bits of this bits of that that you never understand).

Also, you'll probably have too many vacations and wonderful places to visit to spend money. A round in the supermarket for us a family of 2 can easily go to 100-150 euros. Sometimes I go to the supermarket to snatch a few things that cost 20-30 euros. I'm a careful person but occasionally like I just wandered into a local market to get a dinner box as a gift to my workout, that cost me 10 euros (instead of spending 3-4 euros to cook it myself).

If you already have savings to cover this exciting experience that would be another matter.

Salary ref link:
http://www.adecco.it/pagine/pagina.aspx?ID=Salary_Guide001&L=IT

dls_in_us, it was not in our intentions to mind your business. We were just trying to understand your expectations and needs.
Money is not definitely the best reason to move to Italy: the dollar is weak, Italian salaries are low and people are generally unhappy.
However, if you happen to live in some happy island such as Vicenza and Padova where there are a lot of small factories family-owned, then you will more likely see the big house and the big cars.

Italian top of fashion seems to live or in the very city centre (small house by your standards, small car because the streets are fairly narrow) or to take a giant rural building and restore it.

Sure €7200 gross per month is a huge number by the average Italian standard, but, as someone pointed out, if you have to pay the rent and buy food and stuff for the family, as well to mantain 2 SUVs.... well, I don't think you are gonna have your American lifestyle here.

We don’t own an SUV. I have never liked them – we have a small BMW sedan and a midsized wagon. We would only bring the BMW and would buy a small European car as a second. We do not want to live in a huge house, but we would like comfortable three bedrooms with a garage or secure car port. I grew up on a farm and would welcome a house in a semi-rural area if it is good condition and has good heat and insulation. Does anyone have specifics regarding what a house like that might cost to rent in Vicenza?

My wife has been reading these posts as well and she is not getting good vibes. The only place outside the US that she has been is Northern Mexico and that was in a luxury hotel so it hardly counts. We are both pretty concerned about the taxes and what we’ll have left for our retirement and college fund savings.

Italy sounds like an interesting place to retire to, but I’m having second thoughts about bringing a family.

I think the posts here are giving you a realistic view of things in Italy. With the income you will have you can live comfortably but probably on a smaller scale than you do now. We've been here three years now and I tell people we live small. But having said what I've said I love it here. Have a look at my blog listed below. And by the way it's much easier to sell your two cars and buy them in Italy.

there was a recent thread here about renting in vicenza by someone coming over for the military base and there were a few real-estate agents listed perhaps if you do search here you could contact them and tell them what you are looking for: they could give you an idea of what it would cost....

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Originally posted by dls_in_us:
Italy sounds like an interesting place to retire to, but I’m having second thoughts about bringing a family.

I think along the same lines sometimes...I find myself telling a lot of friends back in the States, "It is better to take vacations in Italy than to live here. Unless you are one of those wealthy people who own a villa in Chianti, for example, and don't depend on Italian wages to live, life in Italy can be quite challenging." At least if you have your own money and are not dependent on Italian wages, you only have to deal with the daily life and bureaucratic frustrations here. You at least get a break from the financial strain frustrations. Actually those who are independently wealthy living in these villas, in my opinion, are kind of livng a life of a "permanent holiday in Italy" anyway.

Someone else mentioned the cost of sending your children to an international school. If your company is not paying for it, it could be quite expensive.

Do you have to pay Italian taxes for the first 2 years here? Does anyone know? Because I didn't. I don't know who is eligible for this 2 year tax break. Is it only teachers that get this deal?

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Do you have to pay Italian taxes for the first 2 years here?

Never heard of this before. Do you recall who told you you didn't have to pay taxes for 2 years?

As others have stated, 7,200 Euros is an incredibly high salary for Italy, but the cost of living there is also much higher than Colorado Springs. Personally, I do not think that 7,200 Euros in northern Italy will get you anywhere near what 8,100 Euros gets you in Colorado Springs unless you adjust lifestyle. For example, you won't be able to afford a 3,500 sq ft, modern home on that salary in Vicenza (I know you said you'd downsize but I am just making a comparison).

What concerns me the most is the limited overseas exposure your family has had. Living in Italy is as much commitment as it is adventure. However, it is a commitment one should not take lightly. If I were you, I'd go over on a vacation before doing anything. Get they lay of the land and culture. Do NOT stay in American hotels and do NOT do touristy things. Rent an apartment and attempt to live a normal life for 2 weeks there. Go shopping. Try to conduct what business you can. See what it entails to buy a car, find some furniture, see what pharmacies offer. Find a reason to engage the Italian bureaucracy. If after that, you still want to move forward, then you'll at least know what you are getting into.

you AND your wife :-) need to go there first - you will love it or hate it (I know few people who don't have a fairly strong reaction to Italy one way or another) I would go over, even if it's just for a long weekend to check things out and see for yourselves if at ALL possible. I'll never forget the first time I arrived to study in Padova for a year...think I was expecting a quaint Tuscan hill town or something! was totally in shock...but came to love Padova's international community!

Like others said, it will not be the same life-staye...but I don't think it will be WORSE...just different ;-) prices all over the US differ quite a bit too (so no clue about Colorado prices - I live in NJ)! I, honestly, don't find things to be too much different than my US prices (even with the dollar) - certain things cost us more...and some cost us less. In the north, things are more expensive for sure...but, if you will be paid in Euros, I don't think it will be a huge issue to deal with or a low standard of living at all. Italians just don't live in the same types of homes (in general), so if would be difficult to find an American style house I think (unless you build or are looking into renting an expat's place!)

dls_in_us, Paul in NY has a good point about your family and their limited exposure to overseas living. It is a fact (I know this, I used to help train executives for overseas postings) that the number one reason these ideas fail is because the trailing family cannot adjust to the new situation: language, customs, culture, and just the overall difference of it--on top of having left their natural support systems behind, and quite far away (to them it will feel like Colorado might as well be on the other side of the moon).

Unless they are willing to adopt a "what the heck, why not?" attitude, you may be coming home each evening to some long faces, not ideal. I think the advice about trying to spend some quality time--and by that I mean to underline what others have said: like-a-native quality time--is excellent. In particular your wife (kid are actually much easier) needs to feel she can cope with this, especially as she in all likelihood won't be able to work--another support system shot out from under.

Like others on this forum, I love it here, but I have a different background--I came as a post-grad and stayed--so I got used to the daily hassles, mastered the language, etc, in my own time, no pressure to "fit in" so eventually I just did.

We sound terribly discouraging, but I think for the most part realistic. I feel that far less than your financial situation--it isn't quite as dire as it sounds--your stumbling block may be your family and their attitude to all this: could they make that leap? Only you and your family know the answer to that one.

The job offer sounds good, and as described doesn't seem like you can be replaced easily and the company must be comfortable hiring someone that does not speak Italian. I say go for it. You can always move back to the US and the international experience will be great for your family. There will be plenty of English speaking expats in your area if you feel you need that.

I lived all my life in California but traveled through many parts of the World. It surprises people when I say I don't find life here so different. And I don't find it challenging at all, sometimes it takes three trips to a public office to get one thing done, but if you are nice officials are helpful and things get done. The area we live in at the foot of the Dolomites would probably remind you of Colorado a lot. As would the lifestyle. The Rocky Mountains are beautiful and if you like them you will love the Dolomites. Sports are a big deal here, mountain biking, climbing, camping, and some of the best skiing in the World. And from here the rest of Europe is so close to explore during all those famous Italian holidays.

It seems like you have a great opportunity to offer you and your family a chance to live in a beautiful country why not take it. As I mentioned before take a look at my blog, lots of pictures of some of the things you might want to do. Other expats have blogs as well with pictures of the things they enjoy.

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Originally posted by Bill 2:

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Do you have to pay Italian taxes for the first 2 years here?

Never heard of this before. Do you recall who told you you didn't have to pay taxes for 2 years?

Teachers from the U.S (and I think also the U.K.) do not pay Italian taxes the first 2 years that they work in Italy. (One reason why there is such a high turnover of teachers at American/International Schools...they take advantage of the 2 year tax free status and then leave because the taxed salary is so horrible.) I guess, in fact it IS only a teacher thing. Sorry, I thought it was for ALL Americans working here. But apparently not.

There are actually loads of jobs going in Europe that do not require the employee to speak the local language, so that is clearly not an issue. And it's true Italy has plenty of expat communities so you can get your "hit" of back home either some or all of the time, depending.

There are two potential snags though: one is if you and your family opt for sticking to an expat community, you all lose out on any international experience, including learning another language. There is an enclave outside of Brussels known as the American Ghetto: no one there ever ventures out of it and they spend as many as five years in Europe without ever knowing what it was really like except as a vacation venue.

The other snag is if your experiment fails, your family--and you for that matter--cannot adjust and you throw in the towel before the contract was expected to expire, the company hiring you isn't going to be happy about it. They'll have invested a fair amount in you and will expect a similar commitment from you. This may impact an interesting career move further down the line for you.

I'd love to join the chorus of Go For It! because I love Italy and my life has benefitted no end from this experience--but that's me. You do need to think it over carefully before saying yes, because it isn't as simple as it sounds.