Nick,

but nick what is wrong with walmart if you are getting the same product lets' say dove soap for half the priv\ce you get a a grocery store

Consumer want the best vaule for their money whoich doe snto alway smean the cheapest

The internet infrasturcture maybe have been funded by gov't but the development was done at univeristes entepueneurs who had ideas Govt funding is qui9te different from development

it is the innovation and insight of the free market that made things faster, better,

Most users here in the US have broad band access I assume canada as well

not true of my counterparts in the UK


TO the phone company example, they can price fix all they want.. but you know what broad VOIP is taking over choice and free markets adjust to that

Lori

The USA is the one of if not the richest countries inthe world yet our students conmstantly rank below the rest of the world Look at the downward trned oif the graduatiing high school student Since the inception of the US ed dept we have increased money to our failing school system only to see the reulst get worse ( yes theere have been ebbs and flows in dollars amount but over the long haul it is failing)


The problem with the schools is not the family that can afford to move to better schoools ( which they couldnot do without jobs anyway good jobs)

what about the mother in the inner city who has the child that can excel but cannot becuase she is not allowed to move her child froma bad schoool to a good school

The teachers unions has their own interests before students

Alice,

we sees this all the time the circle of poorness and how gov't policies continue this cycle As much as you are against it corporation create jobs and beneffits. THese jobs must attract workers.. Companies attract worker by offering benefits, healthcare dental, eye etc.


when gov't gets out of the pension business, the regualtion business, education ( should be at the local level) poorr families have the chance to acruee wealth

In Italy the state is moving out of the pension "business" (I have always though about it as a service and a right, and I still do). This is causing extremely severe problems, especially to poorer families because, moving sucha service from a solidal-geared and oriented perspective to a fully commercial persepective is causing many families not to be able to afford a pension fund and therefore to face the perspective of not being able to get apension when they get older. This includes me. So, plesae, don't lecture me on this subject, 'cause I know that the whole theory is solid crap: I am living its many shortcomings on my own skin.

Unfortuantely ITaly the US and any gov't pension plans keeps the cycle going

Would it not be great if during your working career your "pension tax" was put itno a fund you owned and you controlled... something y ou could pass on to your heirs OR something your spose could take over leave you if there is an untimely death

the problem wuith a gov't pension system is it makes people dependent on it and breaking such a cycle is dificult

Nope, it would not. It would be great, rather it is not great because basically it's what happened in Italy. And, beleive me, it does not work. let me say that again: IT DOES NOT WORK.

Alice: The same thing about pensions is happening here, I sympathize completely with you on this subject!

Cilento: As I said, I know nothing about the US school system so I can't speak of that.
So, short lesson on where I come from.
I live in Sweden. Sweden is considered one of the richest countries in the world, even if the Swedish people are not rich. We have less people who are really rich - and really poor - here than there are in most countries because of an extensive social security system. We pay extremely high taxes to fund this system.

In Sweden, schools are free, from age 6 to age how-high-you-want, everybody with good enough grades can get a study loan and allowances from a government administration called CSN. This is not to pay for school/university, which is free, but to pay for books, rent, food and all the daily costs in life.

Because the schools - all schools - are communal (public? is that the right word?), there is no competition. There is no such thing as good schools or bad schools. All schools are equally good, and they stand very well in international comparison thank you very much. I can't help but take your comment about mediocracy as a personal insult, I'm sorry, but who are you to tell me that public schools are mediocre?

If we have to pay for schools, eventually the situation arises where the children with the richest and most influental parents gather in certain schools that are considered "the best", which leads to the prices of those schools to rise to the point where less wealthy parents can't afford for their children to attend them, no matter how talented and smart they are.

Do you have children? I for one don't want my son to suffer and get a worse education just because we, as his parents, didn't succeed in making enough money to pay for the best school. The children don't choose whether or not their parents have money. They should all be given equal chances to succeed.

Then again, I think this whole discussion is very off-topic. Public schools vs private have nothing to do with Italian currencies. We clearly have different opinions on this, but please, know that it is perfectly okay to sometimes admit that you might be wrong and might not know everything.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Annika,

quote:

Would it not be great if during your working career your "pension tax" was put itno a fund you owned and you controlled... something y ou could pass on to your heirs OR something your spose could take over leave you if there is an untimely death

That is EXACTLY what the Swedish pension system has been changed to, and recently - guess what?! - even the government and all kinds of financial advisors had to admit that they were wrong, this arrangement was actually really BAD.

Ownership of your hard earnings are always better than giving your money to a central authority

if it was not better workers wouldn not save for ther own retirements

mindlessly giving your earning to a central gov't

but what if you don't earn that much money? What if you live in a country where unemployment rates are extremely high and you can't get a job? Then what are you planning to live on when you retire? What??

I have said that I agree schools are a public good one of the few things in a free society the should be collective

any comment on school systems was meant towrd us schools

why was it
Bad"


Gov't finacnial advisors saying the money going out fo their conterol is wrong

that sounnds normal

But can you please stop being so suspicious of the government. They actually do tell the truth sometimes.

Your comment about public schools were that they would do fine if you settle for mediocracy. It was directed to me, after my post about public schools HERE. How am I supposed to take that as a comment of US schools?!

I'm sorry but this is getting too much, it's good that you are not here because trust me, I would not use a calm and low voice when discussing this with you. You would need earplugs.
I have made my statements clear, and I'm pretty sure that you won't make me change my mind.

You must work to receive a gov't pension?

it does not matter if yoyu don't earn that much dicerting money to yourself rather than the gov't is always better Gov'ts don't seek the best value for your money only you do

Then when you have a ccumlatesomething you pass it on to your heirs who accumulate and the cyyle can be broken

When I reach the age of 65 I will receive a pension no matter what, but it will be extremely low if I haven't worked and earned money that I can save in different funds etc.
This is how the system works right now, it was different in the past, and now this new system has been used long enough to show that people get so much less money after they retire that they can barely live on it. And this is the older generation, who have worked all their lives. We, the younger generation, who live in a society with 25% unemployment - what will we get?

If we were only to save to our pension ourselves, then we would end up absolutely broke with zero in the bank when we get old. I don't want that!

Suspiscian of gov't comes when I see every form of gov't grow for the better of the people but in time ends up benefitting a few, those that control it

The US gov't certainly the italian gov't

I cannot speak for Sweden

Annika

WHat percent of money do they take out if you are working just for pension / retirement?

I'm not sure. The pension is divided in three parts; "public pension" (taxes), something called "kollektivavtalad tjänstepension" which is a certain percentage of your wage, not sure how high, and then private savings.
Without these two latest parts, you end up with SEK 7000 a month BEFORE TAXES (-35%, SEK 4550 in your pocket) if you are single and SEK 6250 before taxes if you are married.

At today's rates, 1 Swedish crown equals 0,129665 US Dollars.
SEK 4550 = 590 USD

For that money, you can almost pay the rent on a two bedroom apartment in a smaller city. Nothing more.

what does a low wage earner ean in sweden

so if the public pensions and the " swedeish word tax" let's say for an average person average wage earner

what ios the total taken out before taxes from a paycheck?

Cilento, You say that we don't have competition within the schools, yet there is. There is for the very reasons that you've just said. There are good schools, and bad schools, that in and of itself creates competition, as students will want to go to the better schools if they want a better education.

The public schools may not all be of equal or great quality, but they do offer education, and not all teachers put their interests ahead of the interests of the students, as you seem to think.

If there were more private schools, the quality of education in the public schools would get worse, and it would be a downward cycle as the poorer students stay at the public schools, and dont go to university.

As Alice points out, it is hard on the parents as well. They work low income jobs, long hours, and dont have as much time/energy to help their children to study. This in turn can lead to lower grades, and a lack of higher education. Yet, if the student has a strong enough desire to learn and go to university, there are ways. Neither of my parents graduated from university, nor did my brother. When I was in highschool, I was living with my mom, a single parent, who worked at McDonalds just to try and get some income, after the company she worked for went out of business. I learned what it's like to not have money, and not have parents around all the time to help. Yet I knew I wanted to go to university, and my mother always set it up for me that it wasn't an option, that I had to go. And because I kept my grades up in highschool, I was able to get scharlorships and loans to pay for it. And now look at me, I'm moving to Italy for grade school. When I was 16, if you had told me I'd be doing this, I'd say you were crazy. I could never afford anything like that.

It just shows what hard work, and a belief in yourself can do -- And it was done on a US public education all the way.

Lori

Lori - You deserve all the credit in the world for achieving this, and you set up a good example showing that everything is possible. Good job!

Cilento - I don't know. Ok? I do not know. When I worked full time in a nursery home one summer I got about the double "single's pension", including the extra wage for working nights and weekends. I don't have a nursing education so I was on the lowest wage level.

Still, I don't really see a point in discussing these technicalities. We started discussing the currency in Italy, continued with discussing EU - which still is pretty much on the subject - but now it has drifted off to discussing pensions and schools. I suggest we stop this now, or go back to the original subject.

Thanks Annika!

I'm actaully pretty interested in the original subject. There seem to be so many pros and cons either way, between staying with the euro, or converting back. I too would be afraid that if it converts back to the lire, prices would raise even more. I was never in Italy when they used the lire, so I dont remember the "good old days" of the strong dollar. Currency is pretty odd if you think about it, with how much it changes and fluctuates.

How long would it even take to switch back to the lire? It seems as though even if they decided today to switch, that it would take a few years to prepare everything, and put it into effect.

The idea of having a currency that matches the dollar, and fluctuates with it, seems like a bad idea to me. Wouldn't that just create the same problems as now with not being able to control the value in times when the country is in a slump? And even if it had the same value, that doesn't mean that prices would be the same, and to me, that's the same thing has NOT having the same value. I mean who cares if technically it's worth the same, if it costs me twice as much to buy a bread of loaf in one places vs. the other, when my income stays the same?

I would favor a return to the lire for the selfish reasons that my dollar may go further, but who can garuntee that anyways. when they switched from the lire to the euro prices were not converted accurately. And I'm sure the same would happen again.

I'd rather see something that is going to help the country, and the people. Something that is going to lower the unemployment rate, and allow more people to persue their dreams. If that means I get one cafe a day instead of two for my money, so be it. I'd rather that if it allows someone else to have a job, and be able to feed their family.

(disclaimer: these are just my opinions and thoughts, and I dont claim in any way that they are "true" or backed by research, etc etc. I dont know a lot about currencies or how they work. If you would like to correct some of my thoughts, I welcome it. But dont attack me saying how wrong I am, and act as though I'm preaching this as the holy truth. )

Lori