I compared the items I could find with Joe's list. I calculated the correct measurements (got price per lb. not kilo) and of course could not find everything (ribeye, oh man do I wish!) I also had to make due with substitutions, like Foxy papertowels which are nowhere as good as Bounty, and Samontana Gelato since no one has ever heard of Ben or Jerry Veggies are sold by the kilo mostly so when Joe had 1 head of broccoli I couldn't really compare but did give the price per kilo instead.
US SIZE ITALY Adjusted Size Difference
$2.79 lb Lean ground beef $4.81 ($2.02)
$2.69 lb Arnold white bread $1.76 $0.93
$1.29 ea Artichoke $0.64 $0.65
$5.49 lb Baby Back Ribs $1.76 $3.73
$0.99 lb Barilla pasta per lb. $0.68 $0.31
$3.59 pint Ben & Jerry's Icecream $5.43 500 g ($1.84)
$1.39 ea Brawny paper towel $1.25 $0.14
$2.99 bunch Broccoli $3.81 kilo
$4.99 lb butter $3.66 $1.33
$3.99 head cauliflower $1.66 kilo
$1.49 doz eggs $3.97 ($2.48)
$2.99 lb Endive $3.35 ($0.36)
$1.99 bunch Fennel $4.52 kilo
$1.69 5 lb Flour 5 lb. $1.41 $0.28
$1.49 lb Granny Smith apples $0.86 $0.63
$3.99 gallon milk $6.29 ($2.30)
$1.99 three Navel oranges $1.91 kilo
$1.59 lb Perdue whole chicken $1.82 ($0.23)
$3.99 lb Portabella mushroom $3.52 $0.47
$6.29 200 sq. ft Reynold's Wrap $6.76 ($0.47)
$0.99 4 rolls Scott toilet tissue $3.32 ($2.33)
$2.99 5 lb Sugar 5 lb. $2.67 $0.32
$15.49 200 oz. box tide liq. Laundry $11.95 $3.54

I am attaching the excel file as this is hard to read IMO

prices.xls (16 Kb, 11 downloads)

Like America, Australia is quite a car culture and while Italy isn't as bad, outside the big cities it would be hard to get by without them. During the week in Trento we don't use the car, but on the weekends it is a must to be able to explore the area. A lot of the problems in Australia and America are planning issues. In many cases cities were built for cars, not people. In Australia many city councils are trying to remedy this now with loads of bike paths and better public transport, but in my opinion they should just stop building roads. Eventually everyone would get so fed up with traffic jams they would abandon their gas guzzlers and start using environmentally responsible transport.

Well, I've looked into taking a bus to work vs driving. Where it takes me about 25 minutes to drive, it would take me over 2 1/2 hours to take a bus! Mass transportation here (minnesota) is horrendous. They finally built a (ONE)rail line but it is really more for tourists it seems, to go from the downtown area to the airport or Mall of America. They had to FIGHT to get even that, and are still fighting to get another line in to go outside the city for the working masses to take. Very depressing.
I know at one point I had a little SUV (Kia) because the snow can get so bad in the winter, but I see NO need for someone anywhere in the US to buy a frigging Hummer. Unbelievable.

Having read all of your posts on this topic, I can say that I don't blame you for driving your cars. I would too, in the same situations! I guess I am lucky to live in a place where I can get by easily without a car - of course it would be easier with a car but it costs so much and to get a driver's license here would cost me approx. € 2000... so I wait!

quote:

but I see NO need for someone anywhere in the US to buy a frigging Hummer. Unbelievable.

LOL! I call that small penis syndrome.

Admittedly I have an ACURA MDX, a mid-size SUV. Love it. And it is very useful for schlepping the kids around, soccer, road trips. But I don't complain about the gas mileage--it is about 20-22 on the highway. Not bad.

True story--the other day I went to Old Navy at one of the strip malls here (isn't America lovely with all its strip malls?). Anyway, NO KIDDING, on one row of parking that was in front of the store there were 6 YUKON XL suvs. ALL the SAME color. Yes, I am shouting at this point!

LOL Julienini
One little thought... is it impossible to drive your kids to soccer practice in a little Fiat Uno?
Well, I guess I'm not one of those who want everything as big as possible. I want a small house, a small car, a small dog (if I wasn't allergic, that is). I only wish my paycheck wasn't so small....

I thought this might be a good place to once again bring up the website that Alice told us about earlier;

http://www.maposserva.it/

- for some more Italian prices, and to see the current prices in different regions.

Annika: they don't sell those here! But still like my car. Plus, with all the HUMMERs on the road I wouldn't want to be run over!

believe me, my house is too big too. I have SO MANY times told my husband I would give all of this up to live in a culture that doesn't measure someone's worth by the size of their front door/car/brand name shoes, etc. I guess he is worried about living in poverty in Italy. Better than living here, I say. What is a little poverty when you get to open your eyes to Italy every morning? (Just kidding, I don't mean REAL poverty, you get the idea.) I told him he could stayback here and work, send money to us and then come visit. LOL!

I wonder if that has something to do with gender... I have had endless discussions about this with my husband, who thinks it would be embarrassing to drive around in a small car!
I guess we all value different things.

But you are right. It might be plain stupid to have a really small car in the US. You would be squashed like a bug!

Julienini;
I was going to say something about comparing the size of cars to body parts, but didn't want to get flamed.*g*
Annika, they really don't even sell small cars here. A couple of years ago they introduced the Metro, but you put that on the road next to all these huge trucks and SUVs and you are just asking to get killed.

I had a VW Cabrio when I lived in Seattle, and I loved, loved, loved driving to work every day (in the spring/summer) with the top down over I-90. There is no way a bus could compare with that. :OD

I did take the bus for a while, but with rising bus pass costs and my paid parking (job perk) it was cheaper to drive. Plus, with all the rain in Seattle, and the limited bus stops, it sucked. My hair was always a HUGE frizz ball by the time I got to work.

I know the bigger cities - Chicago, NY, SF use their subway systems. Plus I think Americans think subways are cooler then buses. haha LA is so spread out I would think it would be almost impossible to take public transportation.

(And you usually have to drive to the bus stop/park n ride anyway).

WRT cars getting bigger, I don't know about you but I am seeing bigger and bigger cars here in Italy. I actually saw a hummer the other day. And I have never lived in a city with smog as bad as it is here. Sure, we Americans love our cars, but I think italians do too. There are certainly enough on the roads here.

BTW - my brother has a HUMMER. He lives in San Diego, and uses it when he goes out into the desert and down to Mexico all the time. And the next time I go visit him, he said I can drive it. I can't wait to "rule the road!" hahahah

Actually, they do sell "small" (for the US) cars in the US. We have a VW Jetta Wagon TDI. Because it's a diesel engine it does 58 miles/gallon. I use it to go to work (have a 35 mile commute each way) and even though diesel is more expensive here than gasoline, it still save us 1/2 of the money for gas. It was tricky to find a diesel car, but once we did, we did not look back.

As for being afraid of being squished on the highway, recently we went to see my in-laws in Baltimore, which means we had to drive through New Jersey and Delaware (home of the SUV), and I noticed that the number of SUVs is declining, and people are a bit less aggressive when they drive. It might have been the time of day or the time of year (spring!), but something was different. Maybe the price of gasoline is affecting people.

Speaking of "small" cars: yesterday I saw a Smart car parked in the garage in Burlington (Quebec licence plates). I knew Smarts are small, but I did not realized how small until I saw it parked next to an SUV!

And lastly (boy, I seem to have a lot to say today!) some have remarked about building roads for cars and not for humans. There is US author that has written a lot on the subject. His take is radical, but interesting (Link). (Warning: might contain some rude language.)

Howard Kuentsler may be a bit of an alarmist, but I think, all in all, he's got the message right. A friend of mine (a very politically active American conservative, interestingly) sent me this link to an article he wrote for Rolling Stone. It's actuallly an excerpt from his upcoming book of the same title:

The Long Emergency

It's pretty terrifying, if he's correct. Makes me want to move to a place that's better prepared for a world in which we simply cannot move people and goods around the way we do now!

Cristina, thanks for your spreadsheet. It was interesting to compare prices. While your dairy products (ice cream, milk and eggs) are so much higher, it looks pretty much like a wash overall (higher and lower prices offset each other). I wonder why eggs are so expensive in Italy. If I lived in the countryside and had a young family, I'd keep chickens!

P.S. I drive a VW Golf.

Way to go, Joe! Just remember to watch out for SUVs and HUMMERs, we don't want you to get run over!

Basically Joe you're right. Disregarding the items that we can't give exact price equivalencies for, the net gain is about 30 cents; that is, the items cost about 30 cents less in Italy. I base that on:

Sum of the savings on the goods that cost less on Cristina's list:
.93 + .65 + 3.73 + .31 + .14 + 1.33 + .28 + .63 + .47 + .32 + 3.54
= 12.33

Sum of the extra cost of the Italian goods that cost more:
2.02 + 1.84 + 2.48 + .36 + 2.30 + .23 + .47 + 2.33
= 12.03

Since the sum of the savings is greater that the sum of the extra cost, it's a net gain of 30 cents. That alone should justify the move, right?

If it works for you, it works for me. You have managed to gloss over the fact that electricity costs 45% more here than anywhere else in Europe and you have conveniently overlooked the +- US$8 per gallon gas!
If you sit in the dark and don't go anywhere, then you will be just fine.
Hey, I am willing to pay the price as long as I can. If I can't pay it, I will have to move to Mexico or India. Just don't think there isn't a price.

Re: Electricity rates.

Can someone explain to me what it is that is really expensive about electricity in Italy? I went to the enel website and looked at their plans. The cost per kWh ranges (depending on plan) between 7 and 13 euro-cents. Are there huge markups or hidden costs added to the metering? Because here in Vermont, my electrical utility charges between 9 and 16 US$ cents per kWh. Plus some extra taxes, plus the fact that the appliances are dreadfully inefficient, it is not unusual to spend $100/month (or more in a bigger home) on utilities. Maybe this cost is unusually high for the USA, but I really find it hard to see the differnce between what I pay now and what I will pay next month (yay! next month!).

I think the all in cost here for power is a little less then yours but still the Enel prices don't seem extreme. But the prices do go up with the size of the service. We have a normal 100 amp service. I think that would be a 12kw service if you measure the way they do in Italy. Everything above 3.5K costs more from Enel. More to install. More for the power. 3.5kw service is about 30 amps I think.

It's possible to get energy efficient things here but you have to look and be willing to pay the extra money. It seems much easier to find them in Europe. When i replaced my fridge I got a bigger one that uses half the power of the old one. But it cost more then the power hungary models. OTOH it's paid for itself in lower power bills.

You can't just add up the numbers and look at whether the result is positive or negative - the calculation has to include the frequency and amount of purchase.

For example, if I add up the numbers for just the first two items:

• 1 lb lean ground beef $2.79 US vs $4.81 IT = +$2.02 : IT more costly
  
• 1 lb white bread $2.69 US vs $1.76 IT = -$0.93 : US more costly
  
• NET +$1.09 suggests that IT more costly
  

However, if I actually buy per month:

• 1 lb lean ground beef $2.79 US vs $4.81 IT = +$2.02 : IT more costly
  
• 4 lb white bread $10.76 US vs $7.04 IT = -$3.72 : US more costly
  
• NET -$1.71 in fact, US more costly
  

While you may buy 2 bunches of brocolli 2 or 3 times a week, it's unlikely that you need to buy that big box of Tide that often, unless you're doing the laundry for the local Marriot!

Well, couldn't it be a PERCEIVED cost because people are either 1) living on a fixed income or 2) make way less money in general. SO think of it as living in the US with half your salary (or a third, or a quarter or whatever.)? I think some things are more and some things are less. I think city living is equally as costly around the world. If I lived in rural Montana and grew my own vegetables and fruit I could live on less. If I lived where there was public transportation, I wouldn't need two cars, etc.

Not to mention this kind of discussion never takes into consideration a person's CHOICES for things like--satellite tv, Internet, new car, etc. Clearly those are things not necessary for living.

quote:

Originally posted by julienini:
If I lived in rural Montana and grew my own vegetables and fruit I could live on less.

Six of one. 1/2 dozen of the other. I look at the list and know with some effort I could save on most things. I live within 5 to 10 minutes of four large grocery stores. You can add Walmart to that. With some effort and enough time I could find the lowest price for everything. OTOH if you live in a small town you might have only one shop close.

I don't think anybody mentioned seasonal issues. Here we're looking at imported fruit and veggies for most of the year. The time stuff is in season prices are much much lower. Any snapshot of prices will be distorted by the time of the year. It also depends on how much you like out of season stuff. Personally i think fresh means fresh not something picked green 3000 miles away and shipped to me. But some like strawberries with thier snow.

quote:

Originally posted by julienini:
Well, couldn't it be a PERCEIVED cost ...

Yes, you are right - it could be a perceived cost. But I was just pointing out that when the whole list is not based upon the same purchasing period, that perception could be somewhat off or totally wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by julienini:
...PERCEIVED cost because people are either 1) living on a fixed income or 2) make way less money in general.

I don't see how a person's income being fixed or low would mean that they would have to have a perceived cost rather than and actual cost.

quote:

...I think city living is equally as costly around the world. If I lived in rural Montana and grew my own vegetables and fruit I could live on less. If I lived where there was public transportation, I wouldn't need two cars, etc....

True! That's why, if you were living in Montana growing your own vegetables, and the spreadsheet had an entry for city living, you would be misleading yourself by quite a bit by just adding it all up. There's a pretty big difference between a quarter of your salary and a half of your salary. It would be nice if the spreadsheet could narrow that gap down a lot before you decided to pack up and move into a new home.

quote:

...Not to mention this kind of discussion never takes into consideration a person's CHOICES for things like--satellite tv, Internet, new car, etc. Clearly those are things not necessary for living.

That was the whole point of my previous comment: do you buy brocolli twice a week, once a month, or not all?

Bottegal: I wasn't trying to suggest you weren't saying that. I was merely saying that rather than go around and around about the price of milk, it is a difficult subject because it is so variant with where people live, how big their house is, what kind of driving record they have for insurance, etc. It is interesting to see the grocery prices, but isn't determinative of being more or less expensive. That is all.

I agree with everyone!! Except those who disagree with my SUV choice--ha hahahahaha