quote:

Delina: great minds...

Yeah, great minds.

Hi there

I'm new to this site but saw that someone was trying to decide where to give birth in Milan and so I thought I'd write in too.

I've been living in Milan for 7 years now and gave birth to my son in January 2004 at Mangiagalli.I am now pregnant with my second child and am planning to attend the antenatal course and give birth at Macedonio Melloni.

From my experience, Mangiagalli is excellent in providing all the prenatal check-ups etc but struggles to cope with the masses of women who go there to give birth. My first birth was fine but I had the assistance of my gynaecologist and the head obstetrician which I know. This time however, neither of them will be available (I'm due on 1 Jan 2007) so have decided to go somewhere else.

I wasn't very happy with the nursery at all. Apart from morning rounds, nobody seemed to check on how my baby was doing, feeding, changing etc.. I kept him with me the whole time even if it meant very little sleep for 3 days!

I have received many reports, including from my friend from my first antenatal course that it is more and more common for women to be left on trolleys in the corridor for up to 2 days due to beds not being available. In fact, my friend said that after having her 2nd child in February she was in a corridor with two ladies which had been there since the day before. Her husband went to Santa Caterina (the private clinic) to enquire about a private room) but they were all full as well.

Personally, I don't want to run the risk of that happening to me, I mean the whole experience is difficult enough as it is!

I have chosen Macedonio Melloni as two of my friends have both had 2 children there and speak very highly of both the care received by the mother during the birth and by the baby during its first few days there.

I hope this helps somehow!

Jane

I am a big supporter of "natural" childbirth mostly because I think that it leads to fewer complications for mom and baby. Initially I was encouraged when I heard that the use of epidurals during childbirth was low because I thought that it meant that the hospitals would be supportive of "natural" childbirth but boy was I wrong. They expect you to labor in bed on your back and push with your feet up in the stirrups screaming in pain the whole time and begging for meds which they never give you. I had both of my boys unmedicated and the pain was very managable because I demanded to move around, I can't imagine how hard it would be confined to bed.

quote:

Originally posted by erin:
I am a big supporter of "natural" childbirth mostly because I think that it leads to fewer complications for mom and baby. Initially I was encouraged when I heard that the use of epidurals during childbirth was low because I thought that it meant that the hospitals would be supportive of "natural" childbirth but boy was I wrong. They expect you to labor in bed on your back and push with your feet up in the stirrups screaming in pain the whole time and begging for meds which they never give you. I had both of my boys unmedicated and the pain was very managable because I demanded to move around, I can't imagine how hard it would be confined to bed.

I've never had kids but I can't imagine how they could force you to stay lying down when giving birth. Can't you just ignore the doctor and do what comes naturally?

I gave birth naturally here in Naples 2 & half years ago. Seems strange I know considering Campania have the highest C-section rate in Italy.

My experience was not as bad as some of the stories I've read here on this thread. Firstly, I have a wonderful gyno who listens. The gynaecologist who took our prenatal classes only encouraged natural births ie. no c-section, no epidurals no other pain relief just cold hard labour. I decided to take her advice even though the hospital I went to WILLINGLY offered epidural (but you have to take an allergy test for epidurals beforehand which I did not take either). So off I went in my little world of 10 hours of excrutiating pain. I was so tired by the 10th hour that I had no strength to push when it was time. The doctors here only encourage natural births, none of this C-section I've been reading about. I had about 8 gyno's and obstetricians surrounding me in the labour ward intent on helping me bring this child to the light (she just didn't want to come out). Wonderful support and wonderful professional assistance. Although, I believe that the best way to give birth is in a standing position so that you have a little help from gravity. Thats the only thing I would change. I know this sounds too good. But the bad side to this story started when I went to the other side of the building where you were left in the hands of the nurses. What an awful sight they were! Unfortunately, after a very tiring, overwhelming, frustrating experience of giving birth, depression starts to kick in. So a little compassion from the nurses wouldn't have hurt. All I saw were stone cold faces. They don't seem to realise that a smile goes a very, very long way.

Anyway, I am now 7 and a half months pregnant and am more prepared. Firstly, I WILL take the EPIDURAL at all costs. I would advise anyone to do the same. I am no martyr!!
Secondly, I have a question: I was told last week that apparently children cannot enter hospitals at all. This is making me anxious because I cannot bear the thought of not seeing my daughter for 4 whole days. IS THIS TRUE? are children not allowed to enter the premises? please give me some good news

My daughter was 19 months old at the time I had my second and she was with me from 8 in the morning until 8 or 9 at night for the two days I was in hospital. Lots of other moms had their kids with them too.

Sydney, will you be having your second child in the same hospital as the first one? - I suppose so since you had a good experience. Can you tell me the name of the Neapolitan hospital which encourages natural childbirth I'm very interested. Is it private?

For the others: Why aren't epidurals encouraged by all? Could it cause some problems for the child, or is it because the mother is encouraged to really feel childbirth?
I understand that here there are cost issues involved, but I'm wondering if there are other reasons behind not having an epidural.

From what Alice Twain has said and from the research I have gathered, this is my general opinion:

1. Some hospitals are founded or still have attachment to the church and pain is seen as natural and therefore not a big deal, so just deal with it.

2. The public health service here does not want to treat anyone special, why should they, it's public and supposedly free. Even if you arrange for it and want to pay, epidurals are not avail. aka does not exist in some hospitals. This is either to keep costs down or to make things much simpler for the hospital.

3. Even with supplemental insurance, like we have, getting re-imbursed in a pain and unlike in the States things might go a bit smoothly if the hosptial was guaranteed to get their money fast by billing the insurance company directly. Here in Italy the red tape is a big hinderance to this happening.

4. Many of the hospitals are old, much of the "stuff" in these older hospitals are antiquated and they just don't have the newest ideas, technology, know-how, want-to or have even been exposed to new "stuff" like birthing balls, birthing pools, various types of pain management etc....

It seems research is the best thing to do. I don't expect things for free and so I have no problems paying and taking the time to look around until I find what fits the bill for me and my family. I however find the process of this "looking" draining as in the US, information of this sort just seems so much easier to come by.

It's me again. Even though my labour lasted 24 hours in whole from the first contraction, I didn't have an epidural or any other pain relief. My sisters in UK can't believe this as there you always get at least gas and air. Anyway, even though the contractions were very intense and painful, I managed to get through them with the help of my husband massaging my lower back and breathing properly. The contractions were monitored constantly and the obstetrician said later that I must have a high pain threshold or something as they were pretty strong!

Anyway, with regards to epidurals, I think it's a personal decision. I went for an appointment with the anaesthetist a month beforehand where he explained about the procedure. To be honest I was more frightened about the prospect of the huge needle going into my spine and doing damage that the idea of putting up with the pain of contractions. Although the risk of damage to the spine is very rare, some women do suffer from severe headaches for days after the birth. I have since spoken to some women who have said that the epidural had lasted too long meaning they didn't know when to push during the final stage as they couldn't feel the contractions.

I am scheduling an appointment with the anaesthetist again this time so I have the piece of paper that sys I could have an epidural if I needed one, but I doubt very much I will be asking for it.

By the way (sorry if I'm going on), I was made to lie down only for the delivery as the baby had the umbilical cord around it's neck and they had to be careful that he wasn't in any danger. I found it more painful lying down but wanted to avoid a c-section at all costs. My friend gave birh 2 days before me in the same hospital and after 14 hours in labour was given a c-section because of the umbilical cord being around the neck.

As I said before, I'm going to Macedonio Melloni this time and they actually offer water births, so you never know...

Jane

quote:

Originally posted by Gia-Gina in Italy:

2. The public health service here does not want to treat anyone special, why should they, it's public and supposedly free. Even if you arrange for it and want to pay, epidurals are not avail. aka does not exist in some hospitals. This is either to keep costs down or to make things much simpler for the hospital.

I don't know how valid this point is as most (or possibly all) rich western countries apart from the U.S. have nationalized (ie free) healthcare systems and, at least in Australia and the U.K. epidurals are freely available everywhere as far as I know. So I think there is a lot more to it than cost or it being a nationalised healthcare system. I get the feeling that maybe there is a "moral" component to it as well ie some strange idea that as a woman you are meant to suffer or maybe that pain is good or something.

Janey, don't they give gas and air here either?

quote:

some strange idea that as a woman you are meant to suffer or maybe that pain is good or something

Probably a man invented this rule

Epidurals are always available during labour in the UK - as far as I know.

I have never seen gas or air here but that is only here in Siena.

As for epidurals, I think it has a lot to do with the fact that if it ain't broke why fix it. They have not used them as standard and people have been giving birth so why make it standard.

Kind of like Barb's questions about the processing of tomatoes. In the US they have all sorts of gadgets to make it easier but they never took off here because people have been doing it one way forever so why should they change. It does seem that in the US there is always a way to make something easier and as we all know it is VERY hard to teach an old dog new tricks.

Most hospitals also do not have a bunch of anesthesiologists on duty at all times like in the US. At the hospital where I gave birth there was only one. Because of this, if someone had wanted an epidural during birth at the same time as I was having the emergency c/s, they would not have been able to as my surgery was a priority.

As far as I know, it isn't offered here at all (but I could be wrong). They never mentioned it in any antenatal courses or books here in Italy. Perhaps private clinics do?

quote:

As for epidurals, I think it has a lot to do with the fact that if it ain't broke why fix it. They have not used them as standard and people have been giving birth so why make it standard

I have an (Italian)friend here in Naples who chose to have a c-section because she did not want the pain of natural childbirth...Just wondering if her decision would have been any different if gas+air/epidurals were more widely available here.
I would have thought that doctors would be happy to relieve the pain for their patients as much as possible.

It seems like at least 3-4 ladies are expecting within the next 2-4 months, I cannot wait to hear the birth stories.

I know that in a few hospitals, go to Virgilio.it and look them up, you can get prenatal courses, you just have to look and see which ones offer it.

I thought about having a c-section too but ruled that out for now. I am not afraid of PAIN necessarily but I feel very frustrated at the lack of information/or my lack of finding it here in Italy. I cannot tell you all how powerless it makes me feel. All I want in info so I can make an informed choice. We are going to tour some places this w-e and I think this will make me feel better.

Epidurals are readily available in the main hospitals of Milan, you just need to go for the appointment beforehand to check you can have it and take the signed form with you to the hospital. Maybe it is different depending on the region in Italy.

The antenatal course at Mangiagalli was pretty useless apart from chatting with other mums-to-be. We only did 1 5 minute session on breathing exercises and techniques to help with labour. I am enrolling in the one at Macedonio this time which I hear is very good.

Hi -I've only been a member of the forum for a short time but have been reading this thread with interest cos I'm expecting my first baby in approx 2 or 3 weeks. The baby is breech so I'm probably going to be having a caesarian in two weeks (however I'm still currently trying to get into every position possible to get him to turn!).

I live in Lunigiana (Massa Carrara) and am going to OPA in Massa (the paediatric hospital that also has a maternity unit - also called Ospedale Pasquinacci I think). Just to console some people that care must really vary from hospital to hospital cos there you can have an epidural (free) 24 hours a day. The anaesthetist came to speak to us at the ante-natal class and was totally pro pain relief if you felt you needed it - they give an epidural that still allows you to move around. Also from our ante-natal classes (lots of deep breathing and relaxation!) and visit to the hospital they let the mother lead the birth ie she can choose any position she wants, she can move around and there's the option of a birthing pool as well. Don't know about gas and air though - hadn't even occurred to me to ask about that.I've also had the pre-appointment with the anaesthetist where he explains a spinal and epidural and gives you a quick check over. I then signed a consent form which will be used for the caesarian or should I not need that for an epidural during a natural birth.However the other girls in my class said that even if you didn't go to that appointment they wouldn't refuse you an epidural because of it.

The only thing I'm a little concerned about that is different from the UK is that they will not allow the father into the operating theatre for a caesarian so that scares me a little.

The unit is very new (opened last year) with 2 beds per room and private bathroom. It is a public hospital too.

Anyway I've read some of the experiences here with horror cos although I've not given birth yet what I've seen is pretty much what I'd been led to expect from the UK. The only other thing I suppose is that it has not been easy organising it all - the bureaucracy here is something else and as someone else mentioned it just seems very hard to find out about stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by Gia-Gina in Italy:
4. Many of the hospitals are old, much of the "stuff" in these older hospitals are antiquated and they just don't have the newest ideas, technology, know-how, want-to or have even been exposed to new "stuff" like birthing balls, birthing pools, various types of pain management etc.

Usually the problem is not su much with the structures thatare old, they are mainly connected with some doctors being old and little updated, in particular when it comes to "primari". Often getting to dorect a maternity ward is the final goal of doctors. Their carrer was based on on providing the best care available to mothers and children as well as on reaching that stage. They stick to what was taught thirty or fourty years ago and just ignore the new ideas. The concept is that "if mothers gave birth fourty years ago like this, they can do it the same way now too".
Italy is quite full with these doctors, the so-called "baroni": famous, rich and not updated. Innovationsm they seem to think, are for the new doctors who need to establish their name and therefore hang on every new fashion.

Sesto San Giovanni has a pretty old hospital, built in the late 1940's, but the maternity "primario" has modified two of the birthing rooms so that now the hospital has two "camere dolci" with balls and tubs and all, and two traditional rooms where the old-fashioned doctors can still work like they did when my mother was born, or where to perform C-sections. It's not like they had to buyild anything new, and the additional stuff they bought wasn't that costly either (we are talking abot technical equipment: a PET machine costs big eurobucks, not a birthing ball!).

quote:

Delina:
I would have thought that doctors would be happy to relieve the pain for their patients as much as possible.

it dipends on how much the hospital gets reimbursed for each. Reimbursement for an epidural is tiny when compared to reimbursement for a surgery, and a C-section is surgery. Ths lots of the above-mentioned "baroni" opt for the money and push C-sections as the sole alternative to pain. Also,this way you are forced to chose between to equally frightening options: pain or a potentially dangerous surgery (with painful stitches on the belly afterwards: I am not honestly so sure that the scarring after a C-section is less painful than a natural birth!).
We are women and we are doomed to give birth in pain or in fear. it's our punishment for being women. That we may have a (relatively?) pain-free birth with appropriate measures (see above) and epidurals without putting our lives at (small, OK!) risk is simply unconcievable to some.

I have heard that the epidurals can really drop the blood pressure (of you, not the baby). Is this true? If so, then I will not be able to have it since I already have a big problem with this - at its highest, mine is 110/70.
Does anybody know if the above is true?

quote:

Originally posted by AliceTwain:
Usually the problem is not su much with the structures thatare old, they are mainly connected with some doctors being old and little updated, in particular when it comes to "primari". Often getting to dorect a maternity ward is the final goal of doctors. Their carrer was based on on providing the best care available to mothers and children as well as on reaching that stage. They stick to what was taught thirty or fourty years ago and just ignore the new ideas. The concept is that "if mothers gave birth fourty years ago like this, they can do it the same way now too".
.

But how old are these guys anyway? My mother gave birth to me almost 35 years ago and she said that epidurals were so standard then in Australia that to not have was pretty unusual.