Has anyone had any experience with the commune and vaccinations. We have recieved a request to send in our girls vaccination cards to the doctor in charge of vaccinations.

We have given our girls limited vaccinations including DTaP and HIB but haven't done Polio which seems to be obbligatory. I am trying to decide wether to forge our vaccination card or go with the "we don't wish to give our girls a vaccination for a disease that has been erradicated in 99.9% of the world" explanation. We will probably do the former since the latter is quite a disscussion for me to have in Italian.

http://www.ministerosalute.it/faqGenerale/faqGenerale.j...a=null&numeroFaq=3#3

This site seems to suggest that only these are obligatory:

In Italia sono obbligatorie, per tutti i nuovi nati, le seguenti vaccinazioni:
antidifterica (L. 6 giugno 1939 n° 891 - L. 27 aprile 1981 n° 166);
antitetanica (L. 20 marzo 1968 n° 419);
antipoliomielitica (L. 4 febbraio 1966 n° 51);
antiepatite virale B (L. 27 maggio 1991 n° 165).

This looks like an official site to me. Polio is on this list it seems.

Lila has just had her first lot and although some were optional (whooping cough and emofilo) polio was obligatory. In our experience there wasn't much scope for negotiation on the optional ones never mind the obligatory ones.
My advice - if you're determined she shouldn't have it forge the card

quote:

Originally posted by michaelshaun:
"we don't wish to give our girls a vaccination for a disease that has been erradicated in 99.9% of the world" explanation.

The other 1%

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/051013/w101354.html

Gee Micheal, this reminds me of how young you all are and how old I am. I wouldn't consider not doing the vaccine. Polio was an everpresent threat when I was a kid and it is a horror. I was very relieved that there was a vaccine for my kid, even though I, too, lined up with all the other kids in the Fifties to get the shot and I hated that.
You don't wipe out viruses, it appears. They are capable of remaining dormant without a host for as long as they need to. If you lock your kids up in a small place and never travel, maybe they'll never encounter it, but these days no one can count on that. If not legal immigrants, then illegals come into your society from places where coverage is incomplete or bad vaccine was supplied. There were some notable cases and scandals where bad vaccine was supplied to third world countries.
They announced that smallpox was history and then had an outbreak in an Asian country.

It was, and still is now - law in Italy to have your children undergo certain immunisations and vaccinations. You will be notified by the local council when these should be done and your childs Libretto delle Vaccinazioni will be stamped/signed as proof that these have been done. In addition there are those vaccinations that are 'facoltative' (by choice and not obligatory). But those others will need to be done for a child to be able to attend school. I don't know nowadays, but years ago, if your child did not have their Libretto/Certificato 'up to date' you, as the parent were fined and given a fixed period in which to ensure that you obeyed the law......

quote:

The other... well four cases in 300 million.

If you read the article you will notice that the Polio cases in question were traced to an oral vacination given to another child.

I have given my children vaccinations against illnesses that are life threatening. I have done this on the recommendation of our children's pediatricians in California. The maximum, first do no harm drives their approach to medicine. As we have seen here in Italy as well as the US, it is the pharmaceutical industry that most determines what drugs we take.

So, I have read several books on vaccination. There are conflicting ideas about what impact a vaccination has on a developing immune system. I really want to do what is best for my children in the long run. If they can be healthier overall in their life then I want to provied that chance for them.

And as far as law is concerned, perhaps I am an original American who believes in there is room for personal choice in these issues. There is a fine line between "the good of all people" and fascism.

BTW: Here are the current polio cases this year so far:

From Polio cases for 2005, as of week 04 October 2005
1,310 Global cases of poliovirus
473 Nigeria (endemic)
470 Yemen (importation)
251 Indonesia (importation)
33 India (endemic)
26 Sudan (re-established transmission)
17 Pakistan (endemic)
17 Ethiopia (importation)
7 Angola (importation)
4 Niger (endemic)
4 Afghanistan (endemic)
3 Mali (importation)
2 Somalia (importation)
1 Chad (re-established transmission)
1 Cameroon (importation)
1 Eritrea (importation)

Note, no cases in developed countires on this list. How much of a threat this is up to you to decide.

As I said before, in California we had the right to choose. Here not so.

It seems like Carole was just sharing her experience, as requested, with the commune and vaccinations. She puts that "maxim" of hers on all her posts....doubtful that it was meant personally....

Laurie,

I got that and edited my post.

Thanks

If there is one thing the Italians have taught me it is that the law is a maleable thing.

Imagine that...

quote:

Originally posted by michaelshaun:
I really want to do what is best for my children in the long run. If they can be healthier overall in their life then I want to provied that chance for them.

And as far as law is concerned, perhaps I am an original American who believes in there is room for personal choice in these issues. There is a fine line between "the good of all people" and fascism.

I've been out all morning (at the hospital - and no, not for a vaccination.....).
For that reason I have obviously missed what seems to have gone on on this thread this morning.

With regard to the well being of your children Michaelshaun, I don't think I suggested anywhere that you didn't care - did I?

And as to the point you made regarding the law... I don't even know if it is still the law here regarding being fined for not having your children undergo the required vaccinations /immunisations. I proffered that information purely as an anecdote - nothing more, nothing less.
But let me just say Michael, if it is still law, and fines are still given, and you choose to maintain the stance you have laid out here, then I only have one thing to say to you....
"You're a braver man than me Gunga Din"![/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by michaelshaun:

quote:

The other... well four cases in 300 million.

If you read the article you will notice that the Polio cases in question were traced to an oral vacination given to another child.
.

And if the kids in Minnesota had been vaccinated then they wouldn't have gotten polio. Polio was able to travel into the US jumping from unvaccinated kid to unvaccinated kid. All it took was one unvaccinated kid to be exposed to polio. That kid then became a modern Typhoid Mary.

quote:

Polio was able to travel into the US jumping from unvaccinated kid to unvaccinated kid. All it took was one unvaccinated kid to be exposed to polio. That kid then became a modern Typhoid Mary.

Granted,

But other than these live vaccionation cases there hasn't been a naturally occuring case in twenty-five years. These vaccination realted cases are now even a smaller problem that they were before. Up unitl 2000 there were about 8 cases of Polio caused by live vacinations a year. Now that the US uses dead virus injections this number has fallen. The last known naturally occuring Polio in the US was 1979.

We don't vaccinate for smallpox anymore. I suppose that we are all at risk.

The rates of vaccination in California are dropping right now. Much of it has been in reaction to a possible link between thermosol (mercury) and autism. That link is far from proven, but finally there have been some studies started after an enourmous amount of anechdotal evidence came forth from parents of autistic children.

Will there be a series of devistating polio epidemics in California? Doubtfully.

It's not that I am unwilling for my children to have the Polio vaccination. As long as I can get the thermosol free vaccinations. I did want them to have time to grow a little before giving them too many vaccinations.

But in the end our doctors reccomended against taking the Polio Vaccination.

One final thing. With the polio vaccination being given to the majority of children, there is no reason to dis-allow parents to choose not to vaccinate their children.

I firmly stand behind the Amish who chose not to vaccinate. That is there decision to make not ours. It is no threat to us. What about protecting those children? Perhaps that is what those parents are doing.

A bright note is that none of the children have gotten the version of the infection that causes paralysis.

Well that's all I have to say about that. Thanks to everyone who sent me back channel communicaiton.

ciao,

Michael--

I just wanted to let you know that I have a similar stance on vaccinations as you do. Not all vaccinations that exist and are available need to be put into our bodies. Some vaccines work brilliantly and are quite useful, and the risks in those vaccinations balance out for the benefit. However, no vaccines come without risks...and for some people those risks aren't worth a 1% benefit. And if a child goes to school without a polio vaccine and then grows up and decides to work in Nigeria...they can get the polio vaccine THEN...because then the potential benefit would outweigh the risks.

The upshot however, is that while in the US there are laws that allow you to make these sort of medical decisions to abstain from giving your child certain vaccinations...those sort of laws may not exist in Italy. (in reading this thread there is the knowledge of what USED to be the law in Italy...but laws change) And if you want to live in Italy...you gotta play by Italy's rules.

But, best of luck to you Michael. If you find out that laws exist in Italy similar to the USA that allow a parent to refuse vaccinations for their child...please post it here on this thread. I'm sure it will be of help to others.

I just wanted to add that I absolutely support Michaels right to choose whether or not to have his children vaccinated. I also believe this is an ethical and moral right which, imo, is not affected by any law, Italian or otherwise. What I believe about having my own child vaccinated is neither here nor there.

Having read through the pertinent parts of the Ministero Di Salute document posted by Michael there is one reply in FAQ's that explains quite clearly the obligatory and non obligatory vaccines/immunisations. It goes on to state, quite clearly, that the Certificate of proof that these have been administered following the timescales shown at the bottom of the FAQ's, has been followed, must be provided when requested, the enable a child to attend 'la scuola, asilo or nido'. But there is nothing in this document about 'fines'!

I am assuming--which we know is sometimes the wrong thing to do--that if I bring a record of Casey's vaccinations etc. that will be accepted in Italy. He is so up to date that it is ridiculous--including yellow fever and some other exotic stuff because of his travels to rain forests, etc.
Since the record gives the medical terms, are they universal or do I need to have them translated? Any DR's out there that know that kind of thing.

If you don't want to immunize your child you "simply" have to find a doctor willing to say that your child is not fit or in a high risk group and therefore should not have the vaccine.

"From Polio cases for 2005, as of week 04 October 2005
1,310 Global cases of poliovirus
473 Nigeria (endemic)
470 Yemen (importation)
251 Indonesia (importation)
33 India (endemic)
26 Sudan (re-established transmission)
17 Pakistan (endemic)
17 Ethiopia (importation)
7 Angola (importation)
4 Niger (endemic)
4 Afghanistan (endemic)
3 Mali (importation)
2 Somalia (importation)
1 Chad (re-established transmission)
1 Cameroon (importation)
1 Eritrea (importation)"

Thing is, illegal immigrants are streaming in from several of those countries. We only know about those caught.
My point was merely that the disease is too terrible to chance if you've a choice. It was such a threat when I was little that every book I read I thought of as furnishing my memory in case I ended up spending my life in an iron lung. That's not a natural thought for a kid.

Jane-

In answer to your question, it is my experience that most doctors in Italy at least know how to read English, even more so medical terms in English (although they aren't that different, thanks to Latin and Greek derivatives). My bf's brother is in his residency and he cannot converse with me in English, but he was reading the New England Journal of Medicine in English after dinner one night! So a doctor probably may not be able to converse with you in English...but your kid's records should be understood quite well. I would suggest one thing though, most DRs. in the US use abbreviations and acronyms on Immunization charts (like MMR and TeT)...especially forms that schools ask for. I would ask your doctor to write out the full name of the shots your kid has gotten. And unless you are headed to somewhere quite rural in Italy...you should be fine.

LM Thanks for the info. It is very helpful. I just checked him records and the abbreviations are there. Maybe I can just write them out. I also called the DR to see what boosters he may need, if any, while we are gone.

quote:

I just wanted to add that I absolutely support Michaels right to choose whether or not to have his children vaccinated. I also believe this is an ethical and moral right which, imo, is not affected by any law, Italian or otherwise.

I agree with this 100%.

But I also think it is then morally and ethically wrong to burden the healthcare system with the treatment if a child of a dissenter becomes infected with the disease addressed by the refused innoculation.

Perhaps it's easier to dismiss the small chance of your child getting polio when you haven't seen it in action.

A close friend of my husband's was born the year before the polio vaccination became obligatory in Italy (1955). He got polio, and his arms are semi-paralyzed. He can play the piano and do other things not requiring much arm strength (sometimes he uses one hand to help the other lift, say, a drinking glass). He was never able to hold his infant daughters.

The sister of a (much older) American friend of mine got polio as a young nurse in India. She was in an iron lung for months. She eventually recovered well and led a normal life - until post-polio syndrome hit 50 years later. Early symptoms included difficulty swallowing, and you can imagine what the progressive collapse of her throat will entail. I assume she will eventually die of it, or be kept alive on a respirator.

In today's world, there is no such thing as safety from "third world" diseases; people, goods, and animals travel too easily, and diseases go with them. Avian flu is moving fast; polio can also travel, even if you and your child never go to countries where it still exists (like, say, Minnesota).

It's your choice to flout Italian law if you can get away with it (and probably you will). But I don't agree that it's the right choice, for your child or for the others in your community.

I will not deal with the moral questions here, but try to be as practical as possible. As antipolio is given in several doses, forging a certificate may not be enough to avoid a further dose.

I would discuss the matter sincerely with your medico di famiglia. When I was a child I was very sensible to vaccinations, often developing a fever after the doses. I remember our physician officially asked that I could be exonerated from some vaccinations, but of course I cannot remember how the thing was done. I remember very clearly I was enrolled to primary school with an incomplete vaccination program and a medical statement that it was better for me not to have the regular program. Maybe this is still possible.