Interesting article. In addition to the lack of state subsidised childcare spots, at least here in Lazio just being pregnant is extremely expensive. We were discussing this on another thread - but apparently in other regions prepartum care is more or less free - here it costs hundreds of euro even if you go public. Also, at least in Holland, they have great postpartum support. A midwife comes to your house after the birth every day to clean, cook and help with the baby and breastfeeding. And they have drop in centers where you can get more help with breastfeeding etc.
I was surprised to see that only 50% of Italian women with children work. I really don't know any Italian women who don't work but that's probably because it would be impossible to survive on only one salary in Rome - in smaller towns it would probably be easier.
I think the lack of working women with children and the lack of childcare support which is compatible with women who work (for example public childcare centers often close for 2 months every summer - definitely not very practical if both partners work!) goes with a general cultural idea that women need to make endless "sacrifici" for their children which go well beyond what they're expected to do in other countries - from giving up her career, to making time-consuming brodos for the baby when she starts to eat solids, to buying him/her her own flat, to keeping a spotless (disinfected!) home, to supporting him/her financially even when she's over 18 (or even over 28!) And the fact that education takes so long and parents must support them all the way through. These all contribute to a lack of desire to have children or to have many children.
From what I understand from my dad's Japanese girlfriend, Japanese culture is very similar in this respect. I think it's no accident that Japan and Italy have amongst the lowest birthrates in the world. Women want children but don't want to have to give up their entire lives in the process.
making time-consuming brodos for the baby when she starts to eat solids,
Has anyone actually studied that sentence? Reminds me of a visit to a pediatrician in Italy--my daughter was about 4 months at the time and I was still nursing. He said my daughter had a too-liquid diet and needed to start on solids, whereupon he promptly prescribed a diet of...soup!
But Ramona, you're nearly there: after this baby, only another .3 and you're set!
Posts: 935 | Location (City & State): From Lille to Torino | Registered: 12 January 2008
Perhaps the Lega Nord will want to get involved making payments to couples of "pure" Italian blood for having babies. Just being sarcastic.
I find it interesting that governments and people in general who want to fight global warming, and other problems caused by humans would at the same time advocate increased birth rates. Why, mainly to get more workers to support the social services and retirement at at 60 so they can live off the government for 20 to 30 years.
So now they want to make women and men who would just like to enjoy their own lives feel quilty for not having kids or they want to bribe into having them. My questions, why should anyone have children if they don't want to and why should the government be expected to pay them or provide childcare once they do.
Originally posted by jhelm: My questions, why should anyone have children if they don't want to and why should the government be expected to pay them or provide childcare once they do.
If you read the article you'll see that Italian women DO want to have kids - but they're not having them for a variety of reasons. Obviously, if you don't want kids more power to you!
Why should society get involved in providing affordable childcare options, healthcare and education for children? Because raising the next generation is not just the responsibility of an individual couple but the whole of society. In addition, countries such as Italy can ill-afford to have half the population during their most productive years staying home rather than working. And Italy needs more young people either through immigration (which doesn't seem so popular at the moment) or an increased birthrate.
I find it interesting that governments and people in general who want to fight global warming, and other problems caused by humans would at the same time advocate increased birth rates. Why, mainly to get more workers to support the social services and retirement at at 60 so they can live off the government for 20 to 30 years.
John, don't know if you made it to page 3 of the article but a number of experts were quoted making exactly your point.
Guilty of not reading the entire article. My excuse, 8 hours of tests done today to do my continuing ed for my architects license in the US.
Ramona, I agree with you completely about the value of educating the next generation, you answered very well that part of my question. But that would only apply to kids getting close to school age. Also, I might disagree that a parent staying home to raise his or her kids, manage education and family economics, cook, clean, shop, take kids to sports, and keep them out of trouble is not being productive.
There have been some studies in the US showing that a wife who works at an average pay job, we are not talking about a highly paid one, ends up after all the extra expenses of working, adding very little to the total family income. The question becomes one of should the government or employers subsidize the employment of parents.
Remember that book "An Italian Education" by Tim Parks, he seemed to think the main reason Italians weren't having kids was they didn't want to make the sacrafice of such things as the new car, big screen tv, nice vacations,etc. They were just too spoiled.
Remember that book "An Italian Education" by Tim Parks, he seemed to think the main reason Italians weren't having kids was they didn't want to make the sacrafice of such things as the new car, big screen tv, nice vacations,etc. They were just too spoiled.
Another era. Now, actually for most of us normal people, having a child is not a question of giving up the idea of the flat tv screen, but the question is, just reach the 27th of the month. So that's why we need to both work, us women make two jobs (and not because I want to spoil my son -to be, hopefully- until he's 35, but in order to get by)etc...the choice of having a child is not an easy one. And...anyway...if I want the best for my son (also feeding him with BRODI- the reason we make brodi at home is simple, they have NO glutammato monosodico like the ones made by dadi, and I'd love to feed my future son well and not kill his -or my- brain cells with glutammato)why should I be selfish enough to bring him in this world for not caring for him at the best just because I want it all???
I'd love to feed my future son well and not kill his -or my- brain cells with glutammato)why should I be selfish enough to bring him in this world for not caring for him at the best just because I want it all???
There's a new excuse hang ups about food additives.
The root of ALL evils in Italy is the big role the FAMILY plays in Italian life. From this stem nepotism, rife corruption, also the poor economic performances of the whole system.
Empirical evidence suggests that wherever the institution of the family is a loose concept and people are somehow “forced” to venture into the world on their own feet rather than relying on the family, then economies are stronger, social services abound and people make a living more easily.
Of course, this is the most difficult problem to solve, because the family is too deeply entrenched in too many Italians’ minds. It's not the politicians' fault (politicians are an alibi): it's that too many Italians see a resource in what actually is the heaviest of all ballasts.
P.S. Very soon someone will jump up and say “if it weren’t for my grandparents I couldn’t afford a baby”, not even noticing that the availability of grandparents is part of the problem, not of the solution. Wanna bet?
Originally posted by Chia of Bologna: And...anyway...if I want the best for my son (also feeding him with BRODI- the reason we make brodi at home is simple, they have NO glutammato monosodico like the ones made by dadi, and I'd love to feed my future son well and not kill his -or my- brain cells with glutammato)why should I be selfish enough to bring him in this world for not caring for him at the best just because I want it all???
Yes, but why feed a baby brodo/broth (made by hand or made from a cube) at all? I certainly don't plan to feed my child either commercial baby food or brodo when she starts solids. Much easier to just grind her healthy foods which she likes as most of my friends with kids have done. But my paediatrician gave me a sheet with all these complicated foods (including not only home made brodo but also, strangely, jarred homogenised meat ) that I HAVE to feed my child at certain times. There may be a grain of truth to it but most of it is busy work.
The point I was trying to make is that Italian women are made to feel that even one child requires endless "sacrifici" from cooking complicated baby foods, to giving up their jobs, to keeping the house spotless (and disinfected!), to taking the kid to the beach every summer to (later on) cooking 3 course meals for the kid and even finding childcare during the looong 2 month break at public preschools. All this extra work IMO doesn't really matter to the kid who just needs love, basic necessities and nutritious food.
The more I think about it, the more I am beginning to understand that if I had waited to have my son until I started working then he would have had his mother about 1/2 the time he did! How ironic is that... when I was a poor student (okay, that is exaggerating) I could spend about half or more of the daylight hours with him, now that I am working I only spend evenings and weekends with him- keep in mind he is in primary school, so wouldn't make much of a difference anyway since he has big boy activities until 5:30 anyone. IF I stayed on as an attorney in the U.S. I would be home around 8pm or later as opposed to now where I get him at 5:30, and we ALWAYS have a home cooked dinner together. Lesson: I won't have any more kids since during those first few years it would necessarily mean a nanny raising my child instead of me. Not making judgements here folks, but would it really be fair to #2 to give him/her less time than #1... and would it be fair to #1 to tighten our budget and his future University support just to bring #2 into this world? Just a window into my own personal thought process on having more kids now that we are here in Italy.
I am finding this thread really interesting (and a bit freaky, "the Italian family is the root of all evil" - ah, yikes?!).
My husband and I have wanted children together since pretty much day one, but it has not been in the cards for us, just yet. Yet as we give it "a bit more effort" these days, I am saying to myself on a regular basis, "how am I going to do it?" That phrase should be "WE" but the way my husband works and the way the majority of this society works, it will be up to me or my suocera to raise our children. This is not what I or my husband want. But with life in Bella Italia getting more and more expensive, how do we do it? I will have to cut back extensively on my work, which I love, and has grown into something I am very proud of - and which means making less money. My husband will not be able to work any less (gone at 6:00AM and back at 8:00PM - whoever send Italians don't work hard has no clue!). If anything have to work more to compensate for my "time off".
It's a vicious cycle, all based on a staggering government and society. I realize I am not the only one going through this. I just admire those of you who have been able to find a happy medium, something that seems very rare and almost impossible in this country now.
Megan - I feel the same. There is so little flexibility in the workplace here. If you're lucky enough to have a permament job then you hold onto it for dear life. Cutting back to part time or quitting for a few years would be insane when permament jobs are so hard to get and life is so expensive!
Anyway - once my maternity leave is over I'll be out of the house from 8.30-6.30 (at a minimum) every day. Luckily my husband has more flexibility than me. We don't plan to "let a nanny raise our child" of course but my only other option is to quit my job.
Anyway, I'm comparatively very lucky since I have a permanant contract and a full 11 months of maternity leave. Those without such contracts (the majority of younger women) get nada.
Since most of us have been raised under less than perfect conditions, I think we can answer these questions for our unborn or born children. Would you rather your parents didn't have you because your childhood is not or was not perfect, would you rather not be alive because your mom only gave you half the time she gave your brother or she had to leave you with grandparents or a nanny or in daycare.
"All this extra work IMO doesn't really matter to the kid who just needs love, basic necessities and nutritious food." Love can come from people other than parents, and even from parents it doesn't have to be hour by hour, if it's there the kids will know it.
It's OK really to not have children or just have one or just two. One does not need excuses, just say I'm happy with things the way they are.
Good point, jhelm. I can't believe I'm starting with the maternal guilt already!
My mum and dad both worked full time from when I was 4 months old (and same for my sister) and we turned out fine. I don't think that my best friend whose mum stayed home had a 'better' or happier childhood than mine. In fact, I used to feel sorry for her sometimes as her mum seemed to depend on her so much for entertainment. I remember when we were 10 or so we wanted to play but her mum was always butting in asking if we wanted to help her make cookies or go on a walk. I remember getting lots of love and attention from my parents and my babysitters.
It's so easy to just make a pan full a week and freeze separate portions in bags or little jars. Nobody needs to go out and buy ready cubes ...... and even these can be found nowadys without gluttamato.
You wouldn't expect a young child to start off with chicken and potatoes ....... and even if you blend the courgettes and carrots or whatever you will still need a bit of "juice" to make it sloppy enough for a first time feeder.
I always found that the best advice was to listen and then adapt anything that worked for me and ignore anything that didn't. You are after all the mum and the main care-giver and nobody knows better than you.
Posts: 121 | Location (City & State): province of vicenza | Registered: 13 June 2008
A poorly written article, as there are many contridictions which are not addressed. For example, if so many women are unemployed and staying home, why can't they have babies. They don't need daycare, and the medical costs are paid by the government. If women have babies then drop out of the workforce how do they afford it in the poor economy, somehow they are. If more people are dying than being born wouldn't that tend to help the economic situation, more younger people coming of working age to suppor the remaining retirees.
In my circle I don't see the same problems, sister in law, two kids in Milan, lots of paid maternity leave and daycare which cost something like 30 a month. Here we paid about 80 still not a killer and had no problems getting it. Most of the people we know have two kids, and some three. Moms who work are paying about 380 a month to keep their two kids in a private school where they can stay until 5. Grandparents seem happy to pick them up and care for them whenever needed in some cases.
Expats in Italy Forum 
I certainly don't plan to feed my child either commercial baby food or brodo when she starts solids. Much easier to just grind her healthy foods which she likes as most of my friends with kids have done. But my paediatrician gave me a sheet with all these complicated foods (including not only home made brodo but also, strangely, jarred homogenised meat 
) that I HAVE to feed my child at certain times. There may be a grain of truth to it but most of it is busy work. 
Not making judgements here folks, but would it really be fair to #2 to give him/her less time than #1... and would it be fair to #1 to tighten our budget and his future University support just to bring #2 into this world? Just a window into my own personal thought process on having more kids now that we are here in Italy.
I remember getting lots of love and attention from my parents and my babysitters. 