We just finished first grade at the public elementary school in Trento. It was rather tough on my son. He's doing fine academically, but did not enjoy school in the slightest. Too much yelling from the teachers and problems with other kids...

But Italians I talk to are saying that this is why we should keep him there... that all the heavy lifting has been done and next year he will reap the benefits.

I have my doubts. I fear it will be just more of the same. The classroom dynamics did not seem to progress very much at all over the course of the year. The only thing that helped him out was that he learned Italian.

I'm looking into some alternatives for next year, but wondering if there is something to be gained by sticking it out?

It's really hard to judge, the first year is I think the hardest, especially for boys. Our daughter who just finised 3rd has a teacher who had problems controling her class at first now things are much calmer. Our son who just finised 1st has a teacher who has total control over her class and the problem was more about our son adjusting to school.

The advantage of having the same teacher for 5 years is that hopefully the teacher gets to know the students very well and can find the best ways to deal with problems.

You have to ask yourself if you think the teacher is good academically, do the students like her, do you like her, is your son making friends. How can you know that changing schools would be better. It's really difficult, we have had the same debate. We like our daughter's teacher and think things are good academically and now our daughter never complains about problems in the class. But some parents have complained so much that the teacher is thinking about not coming back next year.

I also had the same problem. My kids (twins) started public school here in second grade. The teacher was not good at handling the class in general and was terrified of my kids because they didn't speak Italian. I tried to reassure her as I had gone through the exact same thing (going to school in Italy and speaking no Italian) and knew that they would learn the language quickly. This was to no avail and she continued to not be able to deal with the situation.
I finally started to look at other public schools and talk to the teachers. I found a public school where the teachers had a Dutch kid in the class and had much better control over the students, so I transferred my kids to this school and it worked out very well. They did well academically and also socially. The school was also a Mon-Fri school which I found better for them and me.

My daughter started in September, she's 4. She had a really tough first term, and spoke no Italian. 3 weeks from the end of the year she is fluent and bounces into school. I think the break through with the language was the biggy for her.

Same class, a friend's little boy, half Italian, just hasn't adjusted and they are thinking of putting him somewhere else with smaller classes. He has problems with his language abilities - he isn't really communicating well in any language yet - so this is compounding his adjustment, plus he has been very sick and missed most of the first two terms.

Some kids adapt to school, some don't. Some even love the first few years, have a bad teacher and learn to hate it - this happened to my teen. He loved school, had a bad kindergarten teacher (in UK) and just wanted to leave. We moved away from that area to the South of England and although there were a few problems with bullying, once these were dealt with, he hasn't looked back. September he starts full time boarding in the UK and can't wait!

Go with your gut instinct where your child and school is concerned. If you think doing next term would help, do it, but otherwise start looking around.

Thanks for the support. This is a really tough call for us. He has two main teachers, one who is great and the other is okay. There is a strong presence of a third teacher who is the English and gymnastics and she is horrid. Yes, horrid... not a word I'd use easily to describe anyone. She seems always angry and intolerant of the children. She calls them naughty and nasty. She snaps her fingers at them. It's really ugly to see. Here we thought we were doing him a favor by choosing a school with a strong English program and it is the worst part of his experience.

Class control is a major problem in his class. I'm hearing from other parents with older kids in the school that his is an especially difficult class... maybe it's just unfortunate circumstances.

He is friends mostly with older kids in the school. There is too much teasing in his grade and he seems to seek out more mature kids.

I wanted to send him to this public school so that he would feel at home in the city and we have accomplished that. It is very close to our house and he seems to know every kid we pass on the streets. The thing I didn't like about the Steiner school is that it is somehow isolated from the city and the kids come from all over. But I'm thinking more and more that he needs a better quality classroom experience. We can keep in touch with the friends he's made (most of them are not in his class anyway)... I'm going to visit the Steiner school for a few hours tomorrow.

I have one other comment, although totally based on my personal experience. When I first moved to Italy as a 13 year old I went to an American school but lived in an Italian boarding school. I became very involved with the Italian girls where I lived and hated having different school hours, not being "home" for lunch like everyone else, etc. I ended up transferring to an Italian high school over Christmas vacation and was much happier.
You might want to think about what would happen to your son's current social situation if he were to go to a school that detached him from a reality he already knows. It might isolate him from a situation he feels comfortable with, despite the bad teacher. Sorry to play the devil's advocate but there are pros and cons.

no, no... that's the point of the discussion. Devils Advocates welcome.

The schedule at the alternative school is a half day, 6 days a week which I think would be good for him, but can foresee him not wanting to go every Saturday. But overall he'd have more free time and still be able to take his tennis lessons.

But, yes, I wonder, despite how isolated he seemed this year, if he's forged some relationships he wants to hold onto in the following year.

In the end we may not have a choice as the alternative school is over capacity already. We're waiting to talk with the teacher of the class.

What did you think of the Steiner? Your other thread seems to have disappeared, so I thought I would ask on this one! Wondered if my description of a British one or peoples experiences came close to the impression you got.

We thought of Steiner for a couple of reasons... because it is the only non-catholic alternative to public school in Trento and my kids were at a Montessori school in the US and I thought the environment might be similar. While that seems to be true, the philosophies are really different.

I'm remembering that you described Steiner schools as places where rich Brits could send their kids and they had the safety net of their parents wealth to fall back on if their education never amounted to much more than lessons in pottery.

However, I've talked to a number of families at the school, one who has one of her three kids now attending the public middle school (the school only goes to grade 5) and they have been very happy with the education their children are getting. It doesn't seem so self-directed (as the Montessori school did) but there is still a strong focus on respect for each child as a unique individual. The difference is that the teachers will take the time to figure out what motivates each child to learn the things the school believes they need to know. There is some push... but done in a respectful way.

The thing I perhaps don't like about it is an overriding focus on fairytales over scientific explanations. Being scientists, my husband and I have (perhaps over-)exposed our kids to a more scientific view of why things are as they are. I've nothing against wonder and awe in the world... in fact, studying science has given me a deeper sense of the true magic around us. But this seems to vary with the teacher and the one that would be our son's teacher happens to take our approach to wonder in the universe...

I really appreciate this discussion since my son will be attending Italian public school for the second time in 1 year (with 1 semester in between back in his Calif. school). The school in Trieste was disappointing to say the least. I took into account the fact that my son is hard-headed and likes to be the class clown (and here in Italy there is less appreciation for little deviants), but the teachers couldn't even work around the fact he is colorblind and did not write cursive! I am hoping that the situation improves here in Turin. Of course I want my child to behave, but it seemed like the teachers in Trieste had taken NO child psychology classes and were just spinning their wheels... anyway, I don't think it would be any different in a private school (maybe worse with nuns!). Cross my fingers, but I want my son to still feel like a unique individual and not have some crazy yelling, ranting teacher.

Unfortunately, from what I understand, Italian schoolteachers were not required to do ANY teacher training at all until quite recently. They just had to have a degree in the subject area in which they taught. So older teachers probably haven't had any child psychology classes or basic teacher training.

Kanga- thanks for your reply! I am glad you liked the school and hope it works for you. I think they are perhaps run with the same philosophy in both countries but with a different emphasis. A friend here who is sending her daughter to the one in San Casciano agreed with the "hippy-drippy" conotation for that particular school but she wants the self-directional emphasis of Steiner as she hated her traditional schooling in the States. The one near where I lived in Sussex is surrounded by many traditional private and state schools plus a Scientologist school (East Grinstead being the world HQ for Scientology - Hubbard's castle is close by!)So I think it has gone more the "fairy tale" and pottery route to grab parents who want a very untraditional education for their kids. Also if you know literature, this area was also home to the Bloomsbury set and alot who live in the area are there because of the Virginia Wolf associations, so maybe it was more natural for this particular Steiner to evolve the way it has. It isn't known for it's academic achievements anyway. Keep an eye on your kids progress, but with parents like yourselves, who are already exposing their kids to learning at home, from what you have said, they will probably thrive here.

jenna - I have to say my daughter loves the nuns and they seem to be very patient and loving with the kids. In fact the worst trouble we have had this year is because they are so tolerant of children with major problems, not just the class clown! Many parents have been trying to have one little boy removed as he can be a menace and a bully but the nuns take on it is that they are there to help and that they are working with him and his parents and, yes, psychologist, to help him overcome his troubles. So may not be as bad as you anticipate - but nuns, like teachers, differ, so I would suggest visiting many church schools until you find one where the nuns seem to be in step with you - that was the feeling I had from my daughter's school.

alyson: of course there are probably many wonderful nuns who run schools, and maybe some of them have a wonderful teaching and child rearing philosophy. i am not religious and i don't want my son to be indoctrinated, even by the environment, so i would not send him to a religious-based school. this is of course just a personal preference. i feel that if he wants to chose a religion or religious environment for himself in the future, he is free to do so.

Honestly, this really wasn't a concern for me.

I was brought up to go to church every Sunday as a Methodist and now I never go and wouldn't consider myself a christian in the religious sense - possibly in my morality. All schools in the UK hold a religious based service most days with prayers and hymns although some now go for a more "humanist" approach. My husband's family are Catholic but he has never practised, so just because she has a nun teaching her doesn't, for me, mean she will automatically become a Catholic or particuarly religious. There is no requirement, as there is in UK Catholic schools, for them to take Catechism and be confirmed.

So while I understand where you are coming from - I believe my kids should choose too - I don't necessarily think attending a Catholic school here will make that much difference to her eventual choice in belief or non-belief.

FWIW: the first school my daughter attended was the asilo nido run by nuns. Advantages? learned Italian properly, ie minus the local dialect the other kids had; disadvantages? don't remember any. Yes there were Christmas plays and that sort of thing, but I never once felt she was being overwhelmed with dogma, she just enjoyed learning little poems and songs. Pretty harmless I'd say.

I have to say the little village where this was going on was predominantly communist, so maybe they'd filtered the nuns long before we arrived.

Speaking of this: has the grembiule gone the way of the dinosoar? I see kids clearly on a school outing and no grembiuli in sight. Those silly items were darned handy, especially the elementary school black, you only needed to wash it over the weekend, and their "street" clothes escaped all the colourings etc. Plus the asilo ones of pink gingham for girls and blue for boys was so cute when they were out and about in twos!

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Originally posted by alyson:
All schools in the UK hold a religious based service most days with prayers and hymns although some now go for a more "humanist" approach.

Wow - I'm really surprised by this! They hold religious services most days, say prayers and sing hymns? Even in highly multicultural areas like the big cities? How do muslim/Jewish/buddhist etc. parents feel about this?

At my inner city state school in Australia we had "scripture" once a week but at my school they just invited in the local priests, ministers, rabbis, imams etc to teach this one class - we had (if I recall correctly) a choice of Roman Catholic, Anglican, Methodist, Episcopalian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist and atheist (ie go to the library). I'm an atheist so I went to the library.

There would have been a huge uproar if they'd, say, decided that the school would be Methodist and just had the Methodist minister teach scripture to the whole school. Apart from anything else more than 10% of the kids at my school were Muslim.

filomena - most school kids here still wear them, except after the start of June when it is too hot! We have two from the school, both yellow.

Ramona - the state religion is Church of England and the Queen is head of the church. There is no separation of church and state in the UK, therefore the schools are primarily C of E. Other denominational schools exist and flourish. Some schools are specifically C of E as opposed to the state schools which are regarded as primarily C of E. It used to be that children of Mushlim or Jewish origin could sit out the assembly or even have one of their own. Now it is more normal to have multi-religious assemblies that try to cater for all, but they are still predominantly C of E. I think they probably don't sing hymns anymore but whether prayers of some kind are still said I don't know. In the private sector hymns and prayers are still said and my son attends matins on a Sunday as he boards. He will continue to do this at his next school which was originally part of the Cathedral in Winchester anyway. Again, children from other faiths are excused or have their own prayer time.

It has always been this way, and although more and more concessions are being made, it will probably always be this way. If anything it doesn't produce a country of religious fanatics, it's more likely to put kids off!

BTW, FWIW - and this isn't my take but what was the recognised opinion of the govt. when I was a kid, the opinions until recent years of parents of other faiths were not seen as important, what was important was that the UK was C of E, anyone who resided there recognised this and if they didn't like it, well never mind! I think this attitude is partly the reason for the large number of religious schools outside the Christian sector.

It was like this in the States also when I was growing up. The teacher lead the class in prayer at the beginning of the schoolday, we sang religious songs in music class, etc. This was at a secular school.

I think that has probably been outlawed now, which is good as there are more kids of various faiths. I don't think it affected anyone for life though- people grew up and believed whatever they wanted to.

I went to a Catholic school for my primary years, but did go to a public school for two months in 1992. No mention of religion was allowed besides the occasional goddammit . This is in the States and I think it is probably still the same. Religion, no, patriotism yes in public schools as we had to say the pledge of allegiance everyday.

Coming from a Catholic family and having to go to church even during school, I do not consider myself really Catholic so I really doubt children who go to a Catholic school will necessarily be indoctrinated. I think kids do as their peers do. If you place your kid among heavily religious people, chances are he or she will follow that. That's how the Evangelicals seem to do it. But you need a whole community doing it all the time, not just a school with nuns (as I had) that lasts for a few hours a day.

Italians though are not heavily religious from what I've seen. Most of them just pay Catholicism lip service and go on with their lives. It's more a tradition, steeped in local superstition.

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Speaking of this: has the grembiule gone the way of the dinosoar? I see kids clearly on a school outing and no grembiuli in sight.

My son had to wear one in Trieste. They were pointless for 4th graders, but the rules were the rules! In fact, even my friends and family in Sicily thought it strange he had to wear one... good news that they probably don't exist in Torino!

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Originally posted by jenna:

quote:

Speaking of this: has the grembiule gone the way of the dinosoar? I see kids clearly on a school outing and no grembiuli in sight.

My son had to wear one in Trieste. They were pointless for 4th graders, but the rules were the rules! In fact, even my friends and family in Sicily thought it strange he had to wear one... good news that they probably don't exist in Torino!

They are certainly alive and kicking here in Messina (sicily). See lots of kids out and about in them. Also curiously a lot of the preschools here have uniforms - v creepy to me at that age!

I just recieved some great news that has thrown me for a real loop! My son has been accepted to the International European School here in Torino (it is a public school, by the way)! I had gotten him into another school that is wonderful and had applied at the the International school... with little hope he would get in. Well, he is IN! Now I know I have to go drop the enrollment in the other school, get a nulla osta, and then go and enroll him in the International school (I had NO idea before I arrived that Torino even had a public international school!!!)... does anyone know if I am getting this procedure correct? I certainly don't want to get into any trouble and I must do everything according to the book